More on saw stop

[SetBuilder]

http://www.npr.org/2017/08/10/542474093/despite-proven-technology-attempts-to-make-table-saws-safer-drag-on

[Stercorarius]

Fuck Gass. Fuck the guy who wrote that article.

[fm2176]

2 hours ago, Stercorarius said:

Fuck Gass. Fuck the guy who wrote that article.

 

I don't feel quite as strongly as you do, and honestly know nothing more about SawStop than what I've read here and on various blogs, but the article does seem to be a blatant and self-righteous ad for that company.  The title alone gives that away, and links to related articles indicate that NPR is a big fan of the technology, if not the company itself.

 

I don't own a table saw.  Frankly, if and when I do I'll use every safety feature and accessory I can, but I would be highly unlikely to pay a premium for this technology.  Grinders, circular saws, routers, and especially stationary tools like lathes are all inherently dangerous if taken for granted.  A little caution and prudence all but negates the need to pay more for an invention by someone as contentious as Gass.

 

Besides, we recently had a Private Gass who got chaptered out of the Army.  I have no use for any Gass besides that which comes from the pump.

[Stercorarius]

It's just ridiculous to me to be creating a legal monopoly like that. If they require it on every saw, and simultaneously won't let anyone but sawstop sell it in the US. The writer of the article makes it sounds like cutting fingers off is an inevitability. Like every time we turn on a saw we're all in tears knowing that we can't just cut wood we have to cut fingers off too but we just keep cutting wood and appendages because big bad capitalist pigs running the evil collusion of table saw manufacturers are getting off by not giving us access to the one and only thing that will ever let us cut something safely. Accidents do happen, but in the same crowd that's buying table saw there's all of us that are pinning guards back on skilsaws. That's like the stupidest thing that a guy can do, but we do it anyway to save us a second even though we know we're probably going to lose something doing it sooner or later. What's next are they going to legally require flesh sensing tech in any and every cutting tool? I know that this wouldn't be the only instance of a safety device that can legally only be made or licensed from one company being required by law, but I still feel it's bullshit. 

[/Rant]

[fm2176]

I agree wholeheartedly.  That article and other sources I've read make Gass seem like a blowhard who is putting personal interests before people's safety.  It's great that he designed such a safe saw, and completely understandable that he wants some form of compensation, but as someone who long ago put his country ahead of personal gain (admittedly, though, the Army has helped me out tremendously) I cannot understand why he insists on pushing for this technology to become mandatory, thereby establishing that monopoly you speak of.  

 

Maybe this is why I'll never earn a large salary, but I'd rather make a decent living and be known for helping keep others safe than trying to ensure legislation fattens my pockets under the guise of helping a few people (many of whom are improperly trained or lack/disable safety features) keep their fingers.

 

 

[BK13]

12 hours ago, Stercorarius said:

Fuck Gass. Fuck the guy who wrote that article.

It's NPR, dude. They don't really like capitalism or the free market. Someone might not think the correct socialist thoughts.

[Conductor562]

I'll never own a Sawstop saw. I think the technology is great, but Gass is a piece of shit. He's been trying to get any government entity he can to require his patented technology. He started in California a couple years back and he's been at it ever since. 

 

When his patent runs out I may embrace the technology, but until that happens, he. An kiss my ass. 

[Grumpy MSG]

If it truly was all about encouraging safety, he would have licensed his technology to all manufacturers for a low cost that would allow him to recover his investment quickly and then turn a profit after that. His lawsuit against Bosch showed his true colors. 

[ChrisK]

On 8/11/2017 at 2:10 PM, BK13 said:

It's NPR, dude. They don't really like capitalism or the free market. Someone might not think the correct socialist thoughts.

THANK YOU!!!!!

[JakeDewalt]

On 8/25/2017 at 7:51 AM, Grumpy MSG said:

If it truly was all about encouraging safety, he would have licensed his technology to all manufacturers for a low cost that would allow him to recover his investment quickly and then turn a profit after that. His lawsuit against Bosch showed his true colors. 

This 💯 

[Conductor562]

He could have made a fortune licensing the technology. As I understand it he tried, but wanted a king's ransom to get rich quick and when manufacturers balked at his price, he set about his current path of trying to secure legislation to force everyone to buy technology they could only get from him and sue everyone who tried to compete. He's a lawyer by trade, so I guess shit like this is to be expected. 

 

It's general principle that turns me off from the guy. I'll buy a "rest of my life" saw next year before any mandates come to pass, but if I did care about this technology, I'd wait until his patent died because I know there are superior systems that will come. 

[Gnomish Delight]

Meh. I'm buying a 3hp Sawstop next month.

 

There's a lot of talk about creating a monopoly but that's not what the guy is doing. Any company can step up to the plate and create a safety device equal to the sawstop and compete with them. None of them have. Personally that just seems lazy, because this guy has already proven that there's a huge market for the stuff. Sawstop is the top seller in the U.S., and it isn't just because they make great table saws

 

Accidents happen, and they're often stupid accidents. I'm not fond of my own stupidity costing me flesh and appendages. I try to idiot-proof my work as much as possible, and a Sawstop saw makes that really easy which appeals to my second strongest motivation - laziness.

 

Thirdly, Sawstop knows how to appeal to my miserly habits and make me feel like I'm saving money. I'm going to end up getting my little hobby shop LLC'd and insured, because if I'm going to be out banging off in the toolshed every other night I'm probably going to be making too much money to hide from the Tax-man. When the assessor comes out to look at my shop I will be pulling him off to the side to have a moment about my new table saw, and show him the famous hot-dog video, and drop a hint that I've already had another insurance company tell me that they offer deep discounts for people who put safety equipment on their more dangerous tools.

 

I get to avoid potentially embarrassing myself with a stupid injury and stick it to the man, without sacrificing the quality of my work? I'm in.

[Grumpy MSG]

2 hours ago, Gnomish Delight said:

There's a lot of talk about creating a monopoly but that's not what the guy is doing. Any company can step up to the plate and create a safety device equal to the sawstop and compete with them. None of them have. Personally that just seems lazy, because this guy has already proven that there's a huge market for the stuff. Sawstop is the top seller in the U.S., and it isn't just because they make great table saws

The massive hole in your argument is that Bosch did exactly that, created a safety device equal to or better than the SawStop with 2 shots to a cartridge and doesn't lock up and ruin a blade. SawStop sued and instead of a license settlement/agreement went for the cease and desist order. So now if you purchased one of the Bosch jobsite table saws (SawStop did not even offer a comparable model at the time), you cannot purchase replacement cartridges. That is why a lot of folks think they had a great idea, but don't agree with the Company's policy and therefore won't do business with them. 

[Gnomish Delight]

6 hours ago, Grumpy MSG said:

The massive hole in your argument is that Bosch did exactly that, created a safety device equal to or better than the SawStop with 2 shots to a cartridge and doesn't lock up and ruin a blade. SawStop sued and instead of a license settlement/agreement went for the cease and desist order. So now if you purchased one of the Bosch jobsite table saws (SawStop did not even offer a comparable model at the time), you cannot purchase replacement cartridges. That is why a lot of folks think they had a great idea, but don't agree with the Company's policy and therefore won't do business with them. 

That's called protecting your patent. Bosch's design wasn't dissimilar enough to keep it from infringing on the patent.

 

I don't care who you are, if you have a patent, you better sic your lawyer on anyone who puts one toe over the line in your protected intellectual property, otherwise when your patent goes up for review or renewal, you lose it.

 

That's how it works, and if you don't like it, go hire a team of lawyers and spend the rest of your life trying to get patent laws changed.

 

You still think it's a dick move? What would you have done? We all dream of having that Eureka moment and coming up with a brilliant idea, turning around and patenting it, then riding that patent to an early and comfortable retirement from the confines of our own garages.

 

What would you do if you were on the easy side of that slope and someone snicked your idea, reverse engineered it real quick, and put it on the market in direct competition with you?

 

If you didn't sue them, you'd be back to square one, letting the cogs and wheels turn again hoping lightning will strike twice while you fix the leg on your dining room chair a few years later, because the larger company (Bosch) came out of left field and steamrolled you with their marketing, production, customer support and entire teams of engineers devoted to product development, barely noticing the bump in the road (Sawstop) as they grind ever onward to that annual 4% GPR.

 

Everybody loves to act like they're behind the underdog, until the underdog wins, and then he's just as evil as the despot he de-throned.

 

[BK13]

On 8/26/2017 at 8:30 AM, Conductor562 said:

I'll buy a "rest of my life" saw next year before any mandates come to pass, but if I did care about this technology, I'd wait until his patent died because I know there are superior systems that will come. 

 

What'cha thinking about getting, C-man? I am thinking about tricking out my grandfather's old Craftsman saw but after I buy an Incra fence system and miter, I'm getting, cost wise, to be into an old saw for a big chunk of a new one. 

[Grumpy MSG]

7 hours ago, Gnomish Delight said:

You still think it's a dick move? What would you have done? We all dream of having that Eureka moment and coming up with a brilliant idea, turning around and patenting it, then riding that patent to an early and comfortable retirement from the confines of our own garages.

 

What would you do if you were on the easy side of that slope and someone snicked your idea, reverse engineered it real quick, and put it on the market in direct competition with you?

The "dick move" is to try to use the court system to require all manufacturers to license and use your technology. Doctor Jonas Salk, the University of Pittsburgh and the National Foundation For Infantile Paralysis (Now known as the March of Dimes) did not fight anybody to prevent them from using the vaccine his team created. And from Wikipedia's Post on Jonas Salk:

Quote

Salk campaigned for mandatory vaccination, claiming that public health should be considered a "moral commitment."^[7] His sole focus had been to develop a safe and effective vaccine as rapidly as possible, with no interest in personal profit. When asked who owned the patent to it, Salk said, "Well, the people I would say. There is no patent. Could you patent the sun?"^[8]

I left the footnotes/links for Wikipedia so you could see where they got their info.

 

There sir, is an example of how not to do a "dick move". Like I said in an earlier post, he could have licensed his technology at a cost to recover his investment relatively quickly and start profiting after that while making woodworking and carpentry safer along the way. I am not telling you not to buy his products, I just don't like how he went about trying to force others to use it using the court system.

 

As for having great idea, I am no Izzy Swan, but I have had a few reasonably good ones I think and I have sent them to a company or two, hoping something might come from them. I am not looking for a patent or payment, and if a company made one of my ideas, I just hope they would send me one of the prototypes to try out and one of the first production ones made.

[HiltiWpg]

The Patent system is a joke in the US.

Apple sued Samsung over a "gesture", moving ones finger across a piece of glass. How ridiculous is that?

All you need is a generic description of an idea and you can sue anyone.

Never mind that someone figures out a better way, if the end result is the same, you sue.

Competition breeds innovation, that's why the US hasn't been an innovator for years. The patent system needs an overhaul.

 

http://fortune.com/2015/08/10/patent-system-economist/

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ChrisK]

Well regardless, I love my Sawstop. It's a quality built machine with exact tolerances and it might save my hand from some bonehead mistake.

 

Our legal and patent system is a joke through civil litigation. Bosch never should have been thrown out of the USA. It's an entirely different operating system and shame on our system for failing to see this.

[estley]

.
 
Everybody loves to act like they're behind the underdog, until the underdog wins, and then he's just as evil as the despot he de-throned.
 

yup, i'm fuzzy on the history, but didn't he in the beginning actually try to license the tech to the tool manufacturers, and was laughed at?

As you said, we all like to root for the little guy, and cry injustice and oppression when he/she losses, but we're appalled when he/she grows fangs and fights back in the only way that has a sliver of hope of winning against the armies of lawyers the big boys have...



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Conductor562]

On 8/29/2017 at 6:16 PM, BK13 said:

 

What'cha thinking about getting, C-man? I am thinking about tricking out my grandfather's old Craftsman saw but after I buy an Incra fence system and miter, I'm getting, cost wise, to be into an old saw for a big chunk of a new one. 

 

Ya know, I'm really high on the Delta Unisaw, but the Grizzly saws are pretty hard to beat for the money. It'll probably come down to how much my tax return is 😆

[Conductor562]

On 8/29/2017 at 6:07 PM, Gnomish Delight said:

That's called protecting your patent. Bosch's design wasn't dissimilar enough to keep it from infringing on the patent.

 

I don't care who you are, if you have a patent, you better sic your lawyer on anyone who puts one toe over the line in your protected intellectual property, otherwise when your patent goes up for review or renewal, you lose it.

 

That's how it works, and if you don't like it, go hire a team of lawyers and spend the rest of your life trying to get patent laws changed.

 

You still think it's a dick move? What would you have done? We all dream of having that Eureka moment and coming up with a brilliant idea, turning around and patenting it, then riding that patent to an early and comfortable retirement from the confines of our own garages.

 

What would you do if you were on the easy side of that slope and someone snicked your idea, reverse engineered it real quick, and put it on the market in direct competition with you?

 

If you didn't sue them, you'd be back to square one, letting the cogs and wheels turn again hoping lightning will strike twice while you fix the leg on your dining room chair a few years later, because the larger company (Bosch) came out of left field and steamrolled you with their marketing, production, customer support and entire teams of engineers devoted to product development, barely noticing the bump in the road (Sawstop) as they grind ever onward to that annual 4% GPR.

 

Everybody loves to act like they're behind the underdog, until the underdog wins, and then he's just as evil as the despot he de-throned.

 

 

You cried when the Death Star blew up didn't you?

 

You're missing the real issue. I don't think the patent protection issue is why everyone hates the guy. If I recall correctly (and I do), where he lost most of us was when he started lobbying to force us to buy his saw and take everyone else out of the game unless they paid him for his use of his technology, wanted or not. Estimates when he was trying to pull his shit in California were that the price of a contractor style saw could double. The Reaxx lawsuit just reaffirmed to all of us that the guy was a dick, but most of us disliked the bastard long before that. 

 

Oh I'm sure it'd be great for him if I had no choice but to buy a saw with his technology in it, that when triggered requires a replacement cartridge that I can only get from him, and blades that I can only purchase from him, etc, but as a consumer, that's not my concern. I don't need his technology and I'd rather cut off my finger than give that bastard a nickel. When his efforts at world domination failed, he ended up creating a good quality saw and establishing his brand through marketing and product necessity. If he'd have done that to start with we wouldn't be having this conversation. 

 

 

[DR99]

13 hours ago, Conductor562 said:

 

You cried when the Death Star blew up didn't you?

 

You're missing the real issue. I don't think the patent protection issue is why everyone hates the guy. If I recall correctly (and I do), where he lost most of us was when he started lobbying to force us to buy his saw and take everyone else out of the game unless they paid him for his use of his technology, wanted or not. Estimates when he was trying to pull his shit in California were that the price of a contractor style saw could double. The Reaxx lawsuit just reaffirmed to all of us that the guy was a dick, but most of us disliked the bastard long before that. 

 

Oh I'm sure it'd be great for him if I had no choice but to buy a saw with his technology in it, that when triggered requires a replacement cartridge that I can only get from him, and blades that I can only purchase from him, etc, but as a consumer, that's not my concern. I don't need his technology and I'd rather cut off my finger than give that bastard a nickel. When his efforts at world domination failed, he ended up creating a good quality saw and establishing his brand through marketing and product necessity. If he'd have done that to start with we wouldn't be having this conversation. 

 

 

What the Death Star Blew up Fake News 2017!!!

[khariV]

On 8/31/2017 at 10:11 AM, Conductor562 said:

 

You cried when the Death Star blew up didn't you?

 

You're missing the real issue. I don't think the patent protection issue is why everyone hates the guy. If I recall correctly (and I do), where he lost most of us was when he started lobbying to force us to buy his saw and take everyone else out of the game unless they paid him for his use of his technology, wanted or not. Estimates when he was trying to pull his shit in California were that the price of a contractor style saw could double. The Reaxx lawsuit just reaffirmed to all of us that the guy was a dick, but most of us disliked the bastard long before that. 

 

Oh I'm sure it'd be great for him if I had no choice but to buy a saw with his technology in it, that when triggered requires a replacement cartridge that I can only get from him, and blades that I can only purchase from him, etc, but as a consumer, that's not my concern. I don't need his technology and I'd rather cut off my finger than give that bastard a nickel. When his efforts at world domination failed, he ended up creating a good quality saw and establishing his brand through marketing and product necessity. If he'd have done that to start with we wouldn't be having this conversation. 

 

 

 

Perhaps, but there's always the contingent of people that want freedom above all else and bristle at anyone (especially the government) telling them that they can't do something.  Whether it's riding a motorcycle without a helmet, building whatever you want to where ever you feel like building it or screwing a circular saw underneath a board and calling it a table saw, there's someone who wants to do it.  Sometimes these people get away with it for a long time and then think that there are no consequences, but other times they end up with massive TBI from hitting their head on a curb, missing fingers from their "invention" or entire cities that are under 4 ft. of water because they paved over all of the prairies and wetlands that would absorb excessive rain.  

 

I'm not going to pass judgement on whether we should or shouldn't have mandated active protection tech on table saws, but there are lots of people opposed to it on a fundamental and personal level and just as many that are in favor of it because the rest of society eventually pays the price for some people's "freedom."

 

 

[ChrisK]

On 8/31/2017 at 10:11 AM, Conductor562 said:

 

You cried when the Death Star blew up didn't you?

 

You're missing the real issue. I don't think the patent protection issue is why everyone hates the guy. If I recall correctly (and I do), where he lost most of us was when he started lobbying to force us to buy his saw and take everyone else out of the game unless they paid him for his use of his technology, wanted or not. Estimates when he was trying to pull his shit in California were that the price of a contractor style saw could double. The Reaxx lawsuit just reaffirmed to all of us that the guy was a dick, but most of us disliked the bastard long before that. 

 

Oh I'm sure it'd be great for him if I had no choice but to buy a saw with his technology in it, that when triggered requires a replacement cartridge that I can only get from him, and blades that I can only purchase from him, etc, but as a consumer, that's not my concern. I don't need his technology and I'd rather cut off my finger than give that bastard a nickel. When his efforts at world domination failed, he ended up creating a good quality saw and establishing his brand through marketing and product necessity. If he'd have done that to start with we wouldn't be having this conversation. 

 

 

To be fair any 10" 5/8" arbor (and several stacked dados) work with the Sawstop (including Forrest and Tenyru). Everything else....c'est la vie, the guy is a typical money sponge. Which I am ALL for capitalism, it's what founded this great country, you know, after we took it from its rightful owners. But....using the law to make companies submit to your business is b.s.

[ChrisK]

5 hours ago, khariV said:

 

Perhaps, but there's always the contingent of people that want freedom above all else and bristle at anyone (especially the government) telling them that they can't do something.  Whether it's riding a motorcycle without a helmet, building whatever you want to where ever you feel like building it or screwing a circular saw underneath a board and calling it a table saw, there's someone who wants to do it.  Sometimes these people get away with it for a long time and then think that there are no consequences, but other times they end up with massive TBI from hitting their head on a curb, missing fingers from their "invention" or entire cities that are under 4 ft. of water because they paved over all of the prairies and wetlands that would absorb excessive rain.  

 

I'm not going to pass judgement on whether we should or shouldn't have mandated active protection tech on table saws, but there are lots of people opposed to it on a fundamental and personal level and just as many that are in favor of it because the rest of society eventually pays the price for some people's "freedom."

 

 

That is an awesome point of view and really hits the nail on the head while acknowledging the repercussions of failure to take precautions.

 

A couple of years ago, this chowder head from Mass walks up to me, while I'm involved in a conversation as asks me...

 

"hey, troopah. I don't got to wear a seatbelt in New Hampshuh right"

 

In typical Chris fashion I retorted "no sir. If you want to smash your face all over your windshield and make me help you pay for your medical recovery....knock yourself out"

 

What a putz. At least he didn't file a complaint.