Will brushed cordless tools become obsolete?

[D W]

As the title suggests, will we see the major manufacturers stop producing brushed cordless tools altogether? 

 

They are often more robust, have true variable triggers, are cheaper to produce etc etc. Is the "must be brushless" mentality bringing the end for them?

[Tug]

I bloody hope not! Just bought my first brushed machines in years and they're reminding me just how good they are for low speed throttle control! The ones I've bought are Bosch, but I'm sure Hilti still produce a lot of brushed machines. 

 

Also, as you mentioned, brushed is far simpler in how they work, this makes them cheaper and less prone to failure. 

[JimboS1ice]

I seriously doubt that, take drywall routers for instance, as opposed to a gun they are exposed to evil gypsum dust which well destroys brushless motors. Some conditions just don't play nice with a BL tool so a 4 pole brushed motor is the better route. Brushed motors have come along way and although they have their limitation they are pretty durable all things considered. 

[fm2176]

Good question.  From a consumer viewpoint, brushed tools will always be "better"--less expensive, user serviceable, less prone to damage from abuse/accidents.  Just about everyone here is a diehard tool user/collector, so naturally more runtime and better specs (as most brushless tools boast of) appeal to us.  Harry Homeowner, though, is likely much less discerning, caring more about price and perceived quality.  In my opinion, this is why DeWalt continues to sell new 18v tools.  They are tried and true tools that many people think are still top of the line.  A few months back, I paid a local guy to help me hang drywall.  He brought his 18v XRP drill, but I'm fairly certain my 20v Max stuff changed his opinion.  His batteries died quick, so he found himself using my brushless drills and impact driver more often than not, and he was amazed by the screwgun with collated magazine.  I eventually let him use an adapter to keep running his drill with the 20 batteries.

 

Anyway, I digress.  So long as they continue to see profits, major tool manufacturers will offer brushed tools.  They may slowly reduce the types of bare tools and single tool kits, but larger combos will probably continue to be offered at prices far below those of premium brushless combos.  Think of the DCS393 and DCS381; both are saws with cost-cutting features that are solely offered in combos.  Similarly, look at recent special buy combos.  DeWalt and Milwaukee offer three tiers of drill/impact kits nowadays: brushed, budget brushless, and pro brushless.  The brushed (e.g. DCD780/DCF885) is noticeably cheaper than the budget brushless, which is in turn significantly cheaper than the pro brushless.  

 

Simply put, proven designs (DeWalt 18v, brushed tools in general) will continue to be sold until they are no longer profitable.  Most consumers don't need to pay more for a brushless tool, so they will continue to buy basic models over more premium offerings.  Meanwhile, many of us will continue to buy the latest BL/Fuel/whatever else our preferred brands offer and scoff at those buying that 18v XRP kit at Lowe's (I'm exaggerating; I don't think less of anyone due to what they are buying and am actually glad when I see anyone spending their hard-earned cash on a tool).

 

TLDR; Brushed tools will be around for the foreseeable future.

[dmz2084]

1 hour ago, JimboS1ice said:

I seriously doubt that, take drywall routers for instance, as opposed to a gun they are exposed to evil gypsum dust which well destroys brushless motors. Some conditions just don't play nice with a BL tool so a 4 pole brushed motor is the better route. Brushed motors have come along way and although they have their limitation they are pretty durable all things considered. 

Just curious, how does gypsum dust destroy brushless motors?

[JimboS1ice]

Just curious, how does gypsum dust destroy brushless motors?

The moisture in the drywall dust once it gets in the tool does some serious roshambo on the brushless electronics.


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[Jronman]

Many brands are going brushless. Hilti is one exception where they still use brushed motors.

[Tug]

1 hour ago, fm2176 said:

Good question.  From a consumer viewpoint, brushed tools will always be "better"--less expensive, user serviceable, less prone to damage from abuse/accidents.  Just about everyone here is a diehard tool user/collector, so naturally more runtime and better specs (as most brushless tools boast of) appeal to us.  Harry Homeowner, though, is likely much less discerning, caring more about price and perceived quality.  In my opinion, this is why DeWalt continues to sell new 18v tools.  They are tried and true tools that many people think are still top of the line.  A few months back, I paid a local guy to help me hang drywall.  He brought his 18v XRP drill, but I'm fairly certain my 20v Max stuff changed his opinion.  His batteries died quick, so he found himself using my brushless drills and impact driver more often than not, and he was amazed by the screwgun with collated magazine.  I eventually let him use an adapter to keep running his drill with the 20 batteries.

 

Anyway, I digress.  So long as they continue to see profits, major tool manufacturers will offer brushed tools.  They may slowly reduce the types of bare tools and single tool kits, but larger combos will probably continue to be offered at prices far below those of premium brushless combos.  Think of the DCS393 and DCS381; both are saws with cost-cutting features that are solely offered in combos.  Similarly, look at recent special buy combos.  DeWalt and Milwaukee offer three tiers of drill/impact kits nowadays: brushed, budget brushless, and pro brushless.  The brushed (e.g. DCD780/DCF885) is noticeably cheaper than the budget brushless, which is in turn significantly cheaper than the pro brushless.  

 

Simply put, proven designs (DeWalt 18v, brushed tools in general) will continue to be sold until they are no longer profitable.  Most consumers don't need to pay more for a brushless tool, so they will continue to buy basic models over more premium offerings.  Meanwhile, many of us will continue to buy the latest BL/Fuel/whatever else our preferred brands offer and scoff at those buying that 18v XRP kit at Lowe's (I'm exaggerating; I don't think less of anyone due to what they are buying and am actually glad when I see anyone spending their hard-earned cash on a tool).

 

TLDR; Brushed tools will be around for the foreseeable future.

 

You do know that 18 and 20 are one and the same? There's no difference in voltage, it's just different marketing laws in different parts of the globe. In the UK, it's strictly 18 Volts, not 20 as that's only achieved at fully charged and drops within minutes of squeezing the trigger. 

 

If you're referring to old nimh technology, then yes, world's apart! 

[JimboS1ice]

 
You do know that 18 and 20 are one and the same? There's no difference in voltage, it's just different marketing laws in different parts of the globe. In the UK, it's strictly 18 Volts, not 20 as that's only achieved at fully charged and drops within minutes of squeezing the trigger. 
 
If you're referring to old nimh technology, then yes, world's apart! 

To add to this point if you put a dmm on any fresh charged 18v pack it will read 20v


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[HiltiWpg]

Some tools don't need to be brushless. Brushless has been over-hyped. Hilti is a great example, they use a 4 pole motor, rather than a 2 pole, on their badass drill that is pushing 1060 in-lbs of torque. The efficiency and run time is almost exactly the same as a brushless too. The big difference is that drill work forever, dust, moisture, cold etc. It doesn't have the limitations of so much control electronics and potential failure points.
Heat kills electronics, tools under load produce heat.


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[fm2176]

41 minutes ago, Tug said:

 

You do know that 18 and 20 are one and the same? There's no difference in voltage, it's just different marketing laws in different parts of the globe. In the UK, it's strictly 18 Volts, not 20 as that's only achieved at fully charged and drops within minutes of squeezing the trigger. 

 

If you're referring to old nimh technology, then yes, world's apart! 

 

Of course, hence why I usually write "20v Max" as opposed to simply 20v.  I distinguish between the two by their branding, as in the US they are simply 18v XRP and 20v Max.  Marketing aside, it is a great way to point out that they are indeed different systems, eliminating the confusion between which style of battery a tool uses.  Not a big deal for most of us here, but it avoids returns and bad publicity, even while drawing the ire of other consumers.

 

It's funny how much hatred DeWalt gets for this strategy while Milwaukee's M12 line just slides under the radar.  Maybe I should criticize my Fuel tools...I still haven't found the gas tank.

 

28 minutes ago, JimboS1ice said:

To add to this point if you put a dmm on any fresh charged 18v pack it will read 20v


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Similar to how most 12v car batteries are nominally 13+ volts and alternators put out over 14v.  

[JimboS1ice]

 

Similar to how most 12v car batteries are nominally 13+ volts and alternators put out over 14v.  

[emoji1360][emoji1360]

 

 

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Also, just recently Bosch switched their global 10.8 labeling to 12v

 

Crazy

[kornomaniac]

55 minutes ago, HiltiWpg said:

Some tools don't need to be brushless. Brushless has been over-hyped. Hilti is a great example, they use a 4 pole motor, rather than a 2 pole, on their badass drill that is pushing 1060 in-lbs of torque. The efficiency and run time is almost exactly the same as a brushless too. The big difference is that drill work forever, dust, moisture, cold etc. It doesn't have the limitations of so much control electronics and potential failure points.
Heat kills electronics, tools under load produce heat.


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It's also big and heavy as fuck

[Tug]

4 hours ago, fm2176 said:

 

Of course, hence why I usually write "20v Max" as opposed to simply 20v.  I distinguish between the two by their branding, as in the US they are simply 18v XRP and 20v Max.  Marketing aside, it is a great way to point out that they are indeed different systems, eliminating the confusion between which style of battery a tool uses.  Not a big deal for most of us here, but it avoids returns and bad publicity, even while drawing the ire of other consumers.

 

It's funny how much hatred DeWalt gets for this strategy while Milwaukee's M12 line just slides under the radar.  Maybe I should criticize my Fuel tools...I still haven't found the gas tank.

 

 

Similar to how most 12v car batteries are nominally 13+ volts and alternators put out over 14v.  

 

Gas tank! That's class! 

 

Yeah, I love my Milwaukee kit, but I'll happily criticise the labeling. 

[Tug]

5 hours ago, HiltiWpg said:

Some tools don't need to be brushless. Brushless has been over-hyped. Hilti is a great example, they use a 4 pole motor, rather than a 2 pole, on their badass drill that is pushing 1060 in-lbs of torque. The efficiency and run time is almost exactly the same as a brushless too. The big difference is that drill work forever, dust, moisture, cold etc. It doesn't have the limitations of so much control electronics and potential failure points.
Heat kills electronics, tools under load produce heat.


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I want Hilti in my arsenal, but until I win the lottery that ain't gonna happen. 

[D W]

I'm starting to prefer brushed drills now.

 

I have 2 brushless and I've had nothing but trouble with them. A jumpy trigger, motor brake not working when releasing the trigger, and motor brake not working when loosening the chuck to release a bit. Small issues, but seriously, why any issues? There shouldn't be any.

 

I own 2 brushed (previously 3) and not a single issue with any. I know I can pick one up, and it will work like it should. Reliable!

 

Plus, for some reason every brushed drill has perfectly straight/true chucks, and all of the brushless have some runout/wobble ( I had to return one that had 1mm runout!). Perhaps they are skimping on quality to bring the costs of using brushless down.

 

I know this is anecdotal, but this is really starting to feel like a trend.

[HiltiWpg]

I like them both. Brushed certainly has a place.

The marketing has just gotten out of control. 

Brushless doesn’t automatically mean more power or longer battery life. 

 

Affordable, quality tools have been disappearing to further the “make everything brushless” race. 

 

Its nice there are still ass-kicking brushed tools out there. 

[HiltiWpg]

Waiting for the new Milwaukee Fuel Brushless Coffee Maker, or the new Brushless Pliers,

[D W]

6 minutes ago, HiltiWpg said:

I like them both. Brushed certainly has a place.

The marketing has just gotten out of control. 

Brushless doesn’t automatically mean more power or longer battery life. 

 

Affordable, quality tools have been disappearing to further the “make everything brushless” race. 

 

Its nice there are still ass-kicking brushed tools out there. 

 

 

Good points, definitely agree.

[dwain]

I don't want to see brushed tools dissapear. But I think they will. 

 

Plasma TV's, despite being a superior picture, dissapeared because LED LCD marketing won out, and plasmas weren't cost effective to make anymore.

 

In recent times, none of the brushed tools have been competitive in run-time in any of our comparisons.

[D W]

34 minutes ago, dwain said:

In recent times, none of the brushed tools have been competitive in run-time in any of our comparisons.

 

Except the Makita 18V brushed planer?

 

Ahh plasma TV's, also a fan of those. Sad to see them go.

[Stercorarius]

Didn't Bosch just release some cordless four pole grinders?

[Grumpy MSG]

4 hours ago, HiltiWpg said:

Waiting for the new Milwaukee Fuel Brushless Coffee Maker, or the new Brushless Pliers,

Don't you know, DeWALT already has brushless Hammers and pliers!

[BMack37]

I think they will stay around as a low-cost option but brushed motors definitely have their place. Brushed motors in general will always be used but as far as tools go, I can see it...then I imagine it will come back.

[Tug]

My Bosch 36 Volt combi is by far the best cordless combi I've ever owned by a clear mile, and it's brushed! 

 

The brushless drills I have are powerful and efficient, but lack that certain something that the Bosch has.