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D W

Will brushed cordless tools become obsolete?

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D W    132

As the title suggests, will we see the major manufacturers stop producing brushed cordless tools altogether? 

 

They are often more robust, have true variable triggers, are cheaper to produce etc etc. Is the "must be brushless" mentality bringing the end for them?

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Tug    130

I bloody hope not! Just bought my first brushed machines in years and they're reminding me just how good they are for low speed throttle control! The ones I've bought are Bosch, but I'm sure Hilti still produce a lot of brushed machines. 

 

Also, as you mentioned, brushed is far simpler in how they work, this makes them cheaper and less prone to failure. 

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JimboS1ice    7,712

I seriously doubt that, take drywall routers for instance, as opposed to a gun they are exposed to evil gypsum dust which well destroys brushless motors. Some conditions just don't play nice with a BL tool so a 4 pole brushed motor is the better route. Brushed motors have come along way and although they have their limitation they are pretty durable all things considered. 

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fm2176    124

Good question.  From a consumer viewpoint, brushed tools will always be "better"--less expensive, user serviceable, less prone to damage from abuse/accidents.  Just about everyone here is a diehard tool user/collector, so naturally more runtime and better specs (as most brushless tools boast of) appeal to us.  Harry Homeowner, though, is likely much less discerning, caring more about price and perceived quality.  In my opinion, this is why DeWalt continues to sell new 18v tools.  They are tried and true tools that many people think are still top of the line.  A few months back, I paid a local guy to help me hang drywall.  He brought his 18v XRP drill, but I'm fairly certain my 20v Max stuff changed his opinion.  His batteries died quick, so he found himself using my brushless drills and impact driver more often than not, and he was amazed by the screwgun with collated magazine.  I eventually let him use an adapter to keep running his drill with the 20 batteries.

 

Anyway, I digress.  So long as they continue to see profits, major tool manufacturers will offer brushed tools.  They may slowly reduce the types of bare tools and single tool kits, but larger combos will probably continue to be offered at prices far below those of premium brushless combos.  Think of the DCS393 and DCS381; both are saws with cost-cutting features that are solely offered in combos.  Similarly, look at recent special buy combos.  DeWalt and Milwaukee offer three tiers of drill/impact kits nowadays: brushed, budget brushless, and pro brushless.  The brushed (e.g. DCD780/DCF885) is noticeably cheaper than the budget brushless, which is in turn significantly cheaper than the pro brushless.  

 

Simply put, proven designs (DeWalt 18v, brushed tools in general) will continue to be sold until they are no longer profitable.  Most consumers don't need to pay more for a brushless tool, so they will continue to buy basic models over more premium offerings.  Meanwhile, many of us will continue to buy the latest BL/Fuel/whatever else our preferred brands offer and scoff at those buying that 18v XRP kit at Lowe's (I'm exaggerating; I don't think less of anyone due to what they are buying and am actually glad when I see anyone spending their hard-earned cash on a tool).

 

TLDR; Brushed tools will be around for the foreseeable future.

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dmz2084    10
1 hour ago, JimboS1ice said:

I seriously doubt that, take drywall routers for instance, as opposed to a gun they are exposed to evil gypsum dust which well destroys brushless motors. Some conditions just don't play nice with a BL tool so a 4 pole brushed motor is the better route. Brushed motors have come along way and although they have their limitation they are pretty durable all things considered. 

Just curious, how does gypsum dust destroy brushless motors?

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JimboS1ice    7,712
Just curious, how does gypsum dust destroy brushless motors?

The moisture in the drywall dust once it gets in the tool does some serious roshambo on the brushless electronics.


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Jronman    828

Many brands are going brushless. Hilti is one exception where they still use brushed motors.

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Tug    130
1 hour ago, fm2176 said:

Good question.  From a consumer viewpoint, brushed tools will always be "better"--less expensive, user serviceable, less prone to damage from abuse/accidents.  Just about everyone here is a diehard tool user/collector, so naturally more runtime and better specs (as most brushless tools boast of) appeal to us.  Harry Homeowner, though, is likely much less discerning, caring more about price and perceived quality.  In my opinion, this is why DeWalt continues to sell new 18v tools.  They are tried and true tools that many people think are still top of the line.  A few months back, I paid a local guy to help me hang drywall.  He brought his 18v XRP drill, but I'm fairly certain my 20v Max stuff changed his opinion.  His batteries died quick, so he found himself using my brushless drills and impact driver more often than not, and he was amazed by the screwgun with collated magazine.  I eventually let him use an adapter to keep running his drill with the 20 batteries.

 

Anyway, I digress.  So long as they continue to see profits, major tool manufacturers will offer brushed tools.  They may slowly reduce the types of bare tools and single tool kits, but larger combos will probably continue to be offered at prices far below those of premium brushless combos.  Think of the DCS393 and DCS381; both are saws with cost-cutting features that are solely offered in combos.  Similarly, look at recent special buy combos.  DeWalt and Milwaukee offer three tiers of drill/impact kits nowadays: brushed, budget brushless, and pro brushless.  The brushed (e.g. DCD780/DCF885) is noticeably cheaper than the budget brushless, which is in turn significantly cheaper than the pro brushless.  

 

Simply put, proven designs (DeWalt 18v, brushed tools in general) will continue to be sold until they are no longer profitable.  Most consumers don't need to pay more for a brushless tool, so they will continue to buy basic models over more premium offerings.  Meanwhile, many of us will continue to buy the latest BL/Fuel/whatever else our preferred brands offer and scoff at those buying that 18v XRP kit at Lowe's (I'm exaggerating; I don't think less of anyone due to what they are buying and am actually glad when I see anyone spending their hard-earned cash on a tool).

 

TLDR; Brushed tools will be around for the foreseeable future.

 

You do know that 18 and 20 are one and the same? There's no difference in voltage, it's just different marketing laws in different parts of the globe. In the UK, it's strictly 18 Volts, not 20 as that's only achieved at fully charged and drops within minutes of squeezing the trigger. 

 

If you're referring to old nimh technology, then yes, world's apart! 

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JimboS1ice    7,712
 
You do know that 18 and 20 are one and the same? There's no difference in voltage, it's just different marketing laws in different parts of the globe. In the UK, it's strictly 18 Volts, not 20 as that's only achieved at fully charged and drops within minutes of squeezing the trigger. 
 
If you're referring to old nimh technology, then yes, world's apart! 

To add to this point if you put a dmm on any fresh charged 18v pack it will read 20v


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HiltiWpg    511

Some tools don't need to be brushless. Brushless has been over-hyped. Hilti is a great example, they use a 4 pole motor, rather than a 2 pole, on their badass drill that is pushing 1060 in-lbs of torque. The efficiency and run time is almost exactly the same as a brushless too. The big difference is that drill work forever, dust, moisture, cold etc. It doesn't have the limitations of so much control electronics and potential failure points.
Heat kills electronics, tools under load produce heat.


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fm2176    124
41 minutes ago, Tug said:

 

You do know that 18 and 20 are one and the same? There's no difference in voltage, it's just different marketing laws in different parts of the globe. In the UK, it's strictly 18 Volts, not 20 as that's only achieved at fully charged and drops within minutes of squeezing the trigger. 

 

If you're referring to old nimh technology, then yes, world's apart! 

 

Of course, hence why I usually write "20v Max" as opposed to simply 20v.  I distinguish between the two by their branding, as in the US they are simply 18v XRP and 20v Max.  Marketing aside, it is a great way to point out that they are indeed different systems, eliminating the confusion between which style of battery a tool uses.  Not a big deal for most of us here, but it avoids returns and bad publicity, even while drawing the ire of other consumers.

 

It's funny how much hatred DeWalt gets for this strategy while Milwaukee's M12 line just slides under the radar.  Maybe I should criticize my Fuel tools...I still haven't found the gas tank. :D

 

28 minutes ago, JimboS1ice said:


To add to this point if you put a dmm on any fresh charged 18v pack it will read 20v


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Similar to how most 12v car batteries are nominally 13+ volts and alternators put out over 14v.  

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JimboS1ice    7,712
 

Similar to how most 12v car batteries are nominally 13+ volts and alternators put out over 14v.  

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Also, just recently Bosch switched their global 10.8 labeling to 12v

 

Crazy

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kornomaniac    466
55 minutes ago, HiltiWpg said:

Some tools don't need to be brushless. Brushless has been over-hyped. Hilti is a great example, they use a 4 pole motor, rather than a 2 pole, on their badass drill that is pushing 1060 in-lbs of torque. The efficiency and run time is almost exactly the same as a brushless too. The big difference is that drill work forever, dust, moisture, cold etc. It doesn't have the limitations of so much control electronics and potential failure points.
Heat kills electronics, tools under load produce heat.


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It's also big and heavy as fuck :P

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Tug    130
4 hours ago, fm2176 said:

 

Of course, hence why I usually write "20v Max" as opposed to simply 20v.  I distinguish between the two by their branding, as in the US they are simply 18v XRP and 20v Max.  Marketing aside, it is a great way to point out that they are indeed different systems, eliminating the confusion between which style of battery a tool uses.  Not a big deal for most of us here, but it avoids returns and bad publicity, even while drawing the ire of other consumers.

 

It's funny how much hatred DeWalt gets for this strategy while Milwaukee's M12 line just slides under the radar.  Maybe I should criticize my Fuel tools...I still haven't found the gas tank. :D

 

 

Similar to how most 12v car batteries are nominally 13+ volts and alternators put out over 14v.  

 

Gas tank! That's class! 

 

Yeah, I love my Milwaukee kit, but I'll happily criticise the labeling. 

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Tug    130
5 hours ago, HiltiWpg said:

Some tools don't need to be brushless. Brushless has been over-hyped. Hilti is a great example, they use a 4 pole motor, rather than a 2 pole, on their badass drill that is pushing 1060 in-lbs of torque. The efficiency and run time is almost exactly the same as a brushless too. The big difference is that drill work forever, dust, moisture, cold etc. It doesn't have the limitations of so much control electronics and potential failure points.
Heat kills electronics, tools under load produce heat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I want Hilti in my arsenal, but until I win the lottery that ain't gonna happen. :'(

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