So About Them New Batteries.

[Jronman]

Well NPS18 is over and we have seen Milwaukee's true answer to Flexvolt, x2, and other high demand battery platforms. Will their new battery be able to compete for another 10 years like they claimed last year? Sounded to me like the battery they engineered wasn't just a 21700 upgrade. Sounded like there was some secrets about how the battery is so powerful other than 21700 cells that Milwaukee won't tell us just yet.

 

I'm still a bit unsure. I'm sure other brands are soon to figure out how the batteries are so powerful and integrate that tech into their own platforms and eventually surpass Milwaukee once again in performance.

[D W]

I wonder if they did something like Metabo with their LiHD internals.

 

Metabo's approach:

 

- Enlarged power rails and contacts capable of handling high currents

- 3x better conductivity with cell connectors made of a specialized copper alloy

 

 

Quoted from here: https://www.metabo.com/au/en/info/competence/battery-pack-technology/lihd-battery-pack-technology/

[ToolBane]

2 hours ago, D W said:

I wonder if they did something like Metabo with their LiHD internals.

 

Metabo's approach:

 

- Enlarged power rails and contacts capable of handling high currents

- 3x better conductivity with cell connectors made of a specialized copper alloy

 

 

Quoted from here: https://www.metabo.com/au/en/info/competence/battery-pack-technology/lihd-battery-pack-technology/

Seems like the sort of things they are practically obligated to do.

[HiltiWpg]

I wonder if they did something like Metabo with their LiHD internals.  

Metabo's approach:

 

- Enlarged power rails and contacts capable of handling high currents

- 3x better conductivity with cell connectors made of a specialized copper alloy

 

 

Quoted from here: https://www.metabo.com/au/en/info/competence/battery-pack-technology/lihd-battery-pack-technology/

 

Most people don't understand the relationship between voltage and current. DeWalt's marketing is proof of that. 

18 volts and 60 volts can exactly do the same amount of work. Period.

As long as the lower voltage batteries/tools can handle the current demand, there is no reason to worry about it, their engineers get paid to do that for us!

 

While the 18V, high demand might be more expensive due to increased material costs for upsizing wires and electronics, the battery costs should be slightly cheaper and offset the tool costs. (Compared to 18v x2 or Flexvolt)

 

 

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[sss]

milwaukee did not invent new batteries  .the whole industry is moving towards 21000 and 21700 cells .

soon 18650 will cost more then the new cells .

even 18650 cells can output up to 60A peak currents .most of the time  top of the line cells not used in tool batteries though .

 

the only problem i see is the stock milwaukee battery terminals . i dont see them being reliable for 100+ amps constant power .

lower voltage will always have more loses through wires and electronics , compared to higher voltage , lower current tools .

 

 

[Bremon]

They are upgrading to what other companies are already upgrading to, so no, without x2 they won’t keep up with Makita X2 or 120v Max FlexVolt. I’m sure they’ll keep up with FlexVolt 60v Max and regular Makita stuff just fine though. Notice that they seem to be keeping the 18650 packs around for the time being like everyone else. 

[sss]

i think they're making a mistake .

they wanted to keep same battery platform , but the problem is , nobody gonna stick that huge 12A battery on an impact driver or a drill .and the new tools wont deliver full power with the old m18 batteries .

so what was the point keeping the new batteries interchangeable ? 

just to say its compatible ? 

 

in my opinion they'll have no problem to keep up , power is still measured in watts , not in volts .but those ridiculously huge batteries wont be used on smaller tools anyways , so why bother keeping them at 18v .

 

 

[HiltiWpg]

 

 

 

even 18650 cells can output up to 60A peak currents .most of the time  top of the line cells not used in tool batteries though .

 

the only problem i see is the stock milwaukee battery terminals . i dont see them being reliable for 100+ amps constant power .

 

 

 

So much wrong with this.

 

Firstly, there is no 100amp cordless tool.

Your entire house is only 100-200amps.

 

Second, it sure as hell isn't 60amps either.

Your car's jumper cables would be smaller than the wiring inside that tool, if it existed.

 

Your standard household receptacle is 15A, or 20A T-Slot.

 

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[HiltiWpg]

i think they're making a mistake .

they wanted to keep same battery platform , but the problem is , nobody gonna stick that huge 12A battery on an impact driver or a drill .and the new tools wont deliver full power with the old m18 batteries .

so what was the point keeping the new batteries interchangeable ? 

just to say its compatible ? 

 

in my opinion they'll have no problem to keep up , power is still measured in watts , not in volts .but those ridiculously huge batteries wont be used on smaller tools anyways , so why bother keeping them at 18v .

 

 

Except that flexvolt is already that big.

 

The power delivery will be roughly the same.

 

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[sss]

49 minutes ago, HiltiWpg said:

 

 

 

 

 

So much wrong with this.

 

Firstly, there is no 100amp cordless tool.

Your entire house is only 100-200amps.

 

Second, it sure as hell isn't 60amps either.

Your car's jumper cables would be smaller than the wiring inside that tool, if it existed.

 

Your standard household receptacle is 15A, or 20A T-Slot.

 

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i have no time for online arguing .

your house current rating has nothing to do with it .

 

typical 15A corded tools (milwaukee claims they have same power as 15A corded) are 110V x 15 = 1650W 

to reach the same power with 18V battery you need 1650/18 = 91A 

so yes , to reach those power levels the batteries push near 100A , and even more for short periods . 

 

your car jumper cables typically rated at 200a , car starter around 140A . they are much heavier gauge due to the length of the wire .

 

 

[kornomaniac]

1 hour ago, sss said:

 

so what was the point keeping the new batteries interchangeable ? 

just to say its compatible ? 

 

 

That's most likely the only reason. Marketing. 

 

In any practical sense it's a whole new battery platform. You HAVE to buy the new 12 amp batteries to get the new tools to run as they should.

 

And altho the 12 amps are backwarths compatible with the ' normal' 18v tools.... For pretty much all normal tools it's a ridiculous and non practical thing to be hanging a 1.5 kg battery on the tool.

 

So claiming compatibility and keeping it called ' M18' is more of a marketing thing then of much practical use

[Daniel Julian]

18 minutes ago, kornomaniac said:

That's most likely the only reason. Marketing. 

 

In any practical sense it's a whole new battery platform. You HAVE to buy the new 12 amp batteries to get the new tools to run as they should.

 

And altho the 12 amps are backwarths compatible with the ' normal' 18v tools.... For pretty much all normal tools it's a ridiculous and non practical thing to be hanging a 1.5 kg battery on the tool.

 

So claiming compatibility and keeping it called ' M18' is more of a marketing thing then of much practical use

I have the 10” miter and it will not run on anything less than a 3ah. The 1.5/2’s won’t even spin the blade by itself. The 3 will, but has trouble cutting wood. The 4 and up works fine. I suspect the new tools will be similar.

[Bmill25]

Everyone is complaining that the M18 batteries are no longer really compatible. The new power tool won't run right without the 12A batteries. Its been that way ever since the 4A battery came out. No one is gonna toss the 12A battery on the Surge and run that all day. You'll have forearms like Popeye. And also no one will take the original 1.5A battery and put it on the Fuel circular saw, much less the table saw. Are they compatible? Eh, I guess so, but each tool has the ideal battery for it. The little ones for the impacts, the 4.0 and 5.0 for the hammer drill, circ saw, grinder, etc, the 9.0 for the OPE, and now the 12.0 for the new tools. I have no problem with them calling it compatible, because in a pinch, its nice to know that I could put a 4.0 on the new table saw and get that one last cut out of it.

[More^×2U]

1 hour ago, sss said:

i have no time for online arguing .

your house current rating has nothing to do with it .

 

typical 15A corded tools (milwaukee claims they have same power as 15A corded) are 110V x 15 = 1650W 

to reach the same power with 18V battery you need 1650/18 = 91A 

so yes , to reach those power levels the batteries push near 100A , and even more for short periods . 

 

your car jumper cables typically rated at 200a , car starter around 140A . they are much heavier gauge due to the length of the wire .

 

 

Arent corded tools typically rated by the nominal current drawn from the outlet? What does "15 amp power" even mean? Does that mean that after considering loses, the power is less than 15Ax110v. Arent some of Milwaukee's high power output tools (Sds Max) plagued with hot pack and thermal overload issues?  How long can these new high power output tools run before they hit temperature thresholds? Everyone seems to mentions wire gauge and such...but what about the controllers for these tools (mosfets). They're usually the bottle neck for power output and high current.

[HiltiWpg]

i have no time for online arguing . your house current rating has nothing to do with it .

 

typical 15A corded tools (milwaukee claims they have same power as 15A corded) are 110V x 15 = 1650W 

to reach the same power with 18V battery you need 1650/18 = 91A 

so yes , to reach those power levels the batteries push near 100A , and even more for short periods . 

 

your car jumper cables typically rated at 200a , car starter around 140A . they are much heavier gauge due to the length of the wire .

 

 

 

Except that it has everything to do with it.  

Cord connected tools don't run at 15a, first of all.

Most tools are rated non-continuous which is a maxiumum 80% of 15A (max rating of circuit) or 12A. That's the max. The inrush current is typically 1.5x the continuous current.

 

Typical household connected tools are well under 8A under load. The max inrush of current may spike to 12A etc, but any higher and your breaker may trip. This is why we have electrical standards.

 

Cordless tools are not corded tools with a battery. Flexvolt could get close, but they are hybrid.

 

Suggesting that a cordless power tool sustains 100-200 amps is ludicrous.

For real though, the wire would need to be 1/0 ROFL!!!

The tool would be massive and weight a ton!!!

 

You can simply look up the manufacturers specifications on a battery cell and see what current is available and use ohms law to calculate the actual current capacity and maximum sustainable draw.

 

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[HiltiWpg]

A Samsung 21700 has a max discharge rate of 9.6A continuous, or something like that.
With 4 parallel rows of cells, (each row is 3.6v x 5 = 18v 9A) that's 36A roughly of max current.
For optimum life cycle, it is 1/2 of that, or 4.3 A continuous per cell or 16A using a 4 rows.

18v x 16a = 288 watts or just under 1/2 Horsepower sustained load. Just about 1 HP peak.

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[HiltiWpg]

I am probably off a bit on the battery numbers, but close enough!

Obviously no motor is 100% efficient and we don't know the PF, losses in the electronics etc, but I think the point is made.

 

 

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[Bremon]

25 minutes ago, Bmill25 said:

Everyone is complaining that the M18 batteries are no longer really compatible. The new power tool won't run right without the 12A batteries. Its been that way ever since the 4A battery came out. No one is gonna toss the 12A battery on the Surge and run that all day. You'll have forearms like Popeye. And also no one will take the original 1.5A battery and put it on the Fuel circular saw, much less the table saw. Are they compatible? Eh, I guess so, but each tool has the ideal battery for it. The little ones for the impacts, the 4.0 and 5.0 for the hammer drill, circ saw, grinder, etc, the 9.0 for the OPE, and now the 12.0 for the new tools. I have no problem with them calling it compatible, because in a pinch, its nice to know that I could put a 4.0 on the new table saw and get that one last cut out of it.

Yet this was a huge complaint people had of FlexVolt. “Bu-bu-bu-but my old batteries wont work on my new toooools” as if you’d want to run a table saw or 12” mitre off ten cells anyway. The difference between systems for a daily user comes down to semantics and marketing spin. 

[Pouet]

Let's take the flexvolt grinder. Under heavy use, it has a runtime of about 5 or 6 minutes with a 6ah battery (6ahx18v=108wh). Checkout Ave video if you don't believe me. 6 minutes = 10% of a hour. Therefore the grinder is consumming 108whx10=1080w.  To produce the same output with a 18v, you will need to push around 1080/18=60 A.

[Pouet]

1 hour ago, HiltiWpg said:

A Samsung 21700 has a max discharge rate of 9.6A continuous, or something like that.
With 4 parallel rows of cells, (each row is 3.6v x 5 = 18v 9A) that's 36A roughly of max current.
For optimum life cycle, it is 1/2 of that, or 4.3 A continuous per cell or 16A using a 4 rows.

18v x 16a = 288 watts or just under 1/2 Horsepower sustained load. Just about 1 HP peak.

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Your maths are off. Why 4 rows in parallel? The voltage and the number of rows are not linked together. The voltage is determined by the number of cells in series in a given row, not the number of rows. Each row has the same voltage but the more rows you had, the more current you can push. Therefore, you can add as much as you want to increase the amount of current your battery can push.

[Framer joe]

When the new Milwaukee  circ saw comes out with the 12ah, I am going to buy it and compare it to the flex circ with Dewalts 12ah/4ah on and we will see ..

   I don’t believe it will match up. Definitely closer then the existing Milwaukee circ with a 9ah I’m sure...it’s never about the number of cross cut 2x4s it can cut ,its always about ripping lumber, stacked plywood, LVL stock, PT stock, etc. 

    that’s why framers,construction crews buy these. We don’t rip plywood and construction stock on a table saw...that’s used for trim stock.

    Will it bog down ? Trigger the thermal overload switch? Or cut as fast as the Flexvolt? I know for a fact the Flexvolt 575 and much more powerful 577 can rip any stock NP....and with the new battery, even better.

     I’m curious to find out. And can’t wait for the Dewalt event (whenever it is)

[HiltiWpg]

Your maths are off. Why 4 rows in parallel? The voltage and the number of rows are not linked together. The voltage is determined by the number of cells in series in a given row, not the number of rows. Each row has the same voltage but the more rows you had, the more current you can push. Therefore, you can add as much as you want to increase the amount of current your battery can push.

Because they can use 4 rows? Maybe that’s why? It was an example.

The math is sound. Regardless of 3 sets of series/parallel or 4, the manufacturers spec for the batteries is what matters.

In series, your voltage adds up and your current remains the same, hence “3.6v x 5 = 18v”. The spec of the cell is 9.6a max, 4.3a optimal. In parallel current adds up and voltage remains the same. Each row is 4.3a, 4 rows parallel is 17.2a.

Not sure how you didn’t get that.

 

I should have used the High drain 20700 cells to be more specific with my example. The higher discharge rate would have simplified it.

 

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[HiltiWpg]

Let's take the flexvolt grinder. Under heavy use, it has a runtime of about 5 or 6 minutes with a 6ah battery (6ahx18v=108wh). Checkout Ave video if you don't believe me. 6 minutes = 10% of a hour. Therefore the grinder is consumming 108whx10=1080w.  To produce the same output with a 18v, you will need to push around 1080/18=60 A.

Your math is wrong. 108wa would be the “optimal” discharge rate under “optimal” load. Overloading the motor or pushing it beyond its rated optimal discharge rate will most certainly drain it rapidly. As you push the battery, it heats up etc. There are variables at work that need to be accounted for. 

You don’t consume watts. Watts are the rate at which energy is consumed. 

 

 

Also, isn’t the Flexvolt grinder rated at 1700 watts at 54v? (31.5a)

Those 20700 cells have a max discharge rate of 30-40a.

3ah = 162wa @ 31.5a would be 5.1 minutes of runtime, roughly.

 

If those same cells are present in the Milwaukee etc, the end result would be roughly the same.

 

 

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[The.Handyman]

When the new Milwaukee  circ saw comes out with the 12ah, I am going to buy it and compare it to the flex circ with Dewalts 12ah/4ah on and we will see ..
   I don’t believe it will match up. Definitely closer then the existing Milwaukee circ with a 9ah I’m sure...it’s never about the number of cross cut 2x4s it can cut ,its always about ripping lumber, stacked plywood, LVL stock, PT stock, etc. 
    that’s why framers,construction crews buy these. We don’t rip plywood and construction stock on a table saw...that’s used for trim stock.
    Will it bog down ? Trigger the thermal overload switch? Or cut as fast as the Flexvolt? I know for a fact the Flexvolt 575 and much more powerful 577 can rip any stock NP....and with the new battery, even better.
     I’m curious to find out. And can’t wait for the Dewalt event (whenever it is)

The new Fuel circ with 12.0ah is really heavy and it is smooth cutting but it was definitely easier to stall out than the FlexVolt 575 with a 3.0ah on it. I have video to prove it but can't post here.

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[sss]

6 hours ago, HiltiWpg said:

A Samsung 21700 has a max discharge rate of 9.6A continuous, or something like that.
With 4 parallel rows of cells, (each row is 3.6v x 5 = 18v 9A) that's 36A roughly of max current.
For optimum life cycle, it is 1/2 of that, or 4.3 A continuous per cell or 16A using a 4 rows.

18v x 16a = 288 watts or just under 1/2 Horsepower sustained load. Just about 1 HP peak.

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cut the BS .

current milwaukee 9ah battery uses lg HG2 18650 cells which is rated 20A discharge .

they use 3 rows of cells , so thats 60A max discharge for current 9ah battery .

cant argue with facts .

 

i dont know what cells they use in the new line .

but i know dewalt flexvolt uses Sanyo NCR20700A (not in the new 12ah)

 .which rated at 30A continuous discharge

dewalt uses 10 cell batteries for flexvolt (until the new one comes out) , which gives also 60A continuous discharge .

those are cureent gen batteries . new milwaukees and dewalts for sure have much higher discharge ratings (doh , they even called them like that)