Hugh Jass Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Dewalt just took a #2 in their corduroy jeans... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaultman Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 And I was getting bummed because DeWalt was bragging about how they were going to be putting 5.0 batteries in packages. Still proud to be on team red!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaultman Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 Hey vaultman, did you purchase a vault from Vaultec? I didn't. Just an old nickname. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itchyspanner Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 is that an sds max drill in those photo's?i dont think corded tools will ever be dead, these batterys will prob sell ok but i cant see them being a huge seller compared to 4/5 ah versions. Unless im wrong? they wont give more power/ output to allow more powerful tools? just longer run time but with a bulky size?what they need is batts that allow more powerful tools, most carpenters i know think cordless mitres are underpowerd, most builders i know would never spend the money on a cordless demo drill when you can get a alot more powerful corded version which does not need £300 batts for very cheap money.i think for trades that need these tools for small jobs like a few holes or some finishing jobs they are good, but will these trades pay mega money for a 9ah batt? prob not unless the price is close to the current offering 4-5ahs.time will tell, i guess.Edit: i wonder if the new 9ah batts will fit inside the m18 vac, it's one tools that def needs a longer run time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itchyspanner Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 just seen the 9ah has a 90min charge time on the new rapid charger. not to bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Harris Posted June 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 is that an sds max drill in those photo's?.Yes. It's a new SDS Max 18v. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 I was swapping out batteries on the M18 vac yesterday and it seems like it would have enough room for a 9.0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrull Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 Not sure of impressive is the right word. Not very hard to slap an extra row of batteries in parallell. But it's good evoloution to get some more to choose between. Not only theese to old 36V batteries, or twin battery tech (4 row's). Something good in between. Not sure if its going to change the market or prices on batterieries (doubt it). A bit dissapointed that 2x18V or 36v haven't become the norm yet.But 3Ah would either way be a nice upgrade. Especially in thw compact range. In the high-power range there is otjer options avaliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Jass Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 Only thing I can figure is copyright infringement fears are why dewalt has held back with their battery tech, they're going with bluetooth which is cool, but not where it's really necessary, just more consumer cost. It would be quite easy to make a parallel adapter to support an extra battery as well for really heavy applications. They also have some of the slowest charging batteries on the market, and this to me is the real achilles heel. I mean I love my dewalt tools but they make you buy twice the batteries that you'd not need if not for the extended charging times. Makita has cut the time's in half in comparison and I think now Milwaukee is in tow. Capacities don't make as much sense as charging times do, you double your capacity and double your cost and double your already doubled charging time is far too excessive. For instance, if the compact 2ah batteries charged in say 15min, would you even bother buying a huge bulky high capacity battery in the first place? I wouldn't. You could literally run all day long on 3 batteries non stop (in all actuality 2 would do it but they'd get hot and delay charging). I think I have 9 batteries now to keep up with my demanding day, and 2 are 5.0's so I can run with 2 or more tools simultaneously all day. That's kind of silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rees332 Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 I wonder what the charge time would be on that bad boy Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Jass Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 I wonder what the charge time would be on that bad boySent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I could excuse your laziness for not reading the whole thread, but good god man it's the first comment on this page. >.> 90min. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rees332 Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 I was flicking thought did not see it I apologise for the laziness I need a pair of [emoji165]Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrull Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 Only thing I can figure is copyright infringement fears are why dewalt has held back with their battery tech, they're going with bluetooth which is cool, but not where it's really necessary, just more consumer cost. It would be quite easy to make a parallel adapter to support an extra battery as well for really heavy applications. They also have some of the slowest charging batteries on the market, and this to me is the real achilles heel. I mean I love my dewalt tools but they make you buy twice the batteries that you'd not need if not for the extended charging times. Makita has cut the time's in half in comparison and I think now Milwaukee is in tow. Capacities don't make as much sense as charging times do, you double your capacity and double your cost and double your already doubled charging time is far too excessive. For instance, if the compact 2ah batteries charged in say 15min, would you even bother buying a huge bulky high capacity battery in the first place? I wouldn't. You could literally run all day long on 3 batteries non stop (in all actuality 2 would do it but they'd get hot and delay charging). I think I have 9 batteries now to keep up with my demanding day, and 2 are 5.0's so I can run with 2 or more tools simultaneously all day. That's kind of silly. The real problem with low-capacity batteries, is that thay can't deliver enough amps to the motor. (or needs to have a smaller motor) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itchyspanner Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Yes. It's a new SDS Max 18v. have they said what the impact joules are of this drill? id love to try some of the new fuel sds drills and compare them to other brands, i have the m18 sds plus hammer drill but i find its power is not close to other brands rated at a simular output so i wonderd if they are measuring the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Jass Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 The real problem with low-capacity batteries, is that thay can't deliver enough amps to the motor. (or needs to have a smaller motor) ...huh? A 5ah battery doesn't provide more amperage than a 2.0ah battery. Otherwise what you're stating would imply that all of these brands are keeping the motors small because they have access to smaller ah batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 The XC does have more cells to draw power from though, compared to a compact pack, so isn't as harsh on the battery pack. The challenge, I would imagine, stems from getting theoretical compact 3.0 to have the same pack durability/lifespan as the original XC 3.0 packs. This is all just posturing on my part though so maybe the technicalities of it are simpler than I think they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Harris Posted June 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 The capacity and discharge rate are two different specs. It's actually the opposite of what you would assume. The internal resistance increases as the capacity increases. The more internal resistance the lower discharge rate. As a battery ages the internal resistance also increases.Samsung makes 1.5 ah (1500 mah) cells that have a max discharge rate of 25 amps. The highest discharge rate 3.0 Samsung cells I have found are 15amps. I believe this is why we haven't seen any 3ah slim packs. When I first saw this battery pack I thought Milwaukee has sourced some 4.5ah cells. Batteries continue to improve. Hopefully in the near future we will have 5 ah cells with 25amp discharge rates. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 That's interesting; thanks for the clarification C Harris. I would imagine 3.0 compacts are on the horizon but I'm more concerned with 6.0 XCs anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrull Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 The capacity and discharge rate are two different specs. It's actually the opposite of what you would assume. The internal resistance increases as the capacity increases. The more internal resistance the lower discharge rate. As a battery ages the internal resistance also increases.Samsung makes 1.5 ah (1500 mah) cells that have a max discharge rate of 25 amps. The highest discharge rate 3.0 Samsung cells I have found are 15amps. I believe this is why we haven't seen any 3ah slim packs.When I first saw this battery pack I thought Milwaukee has sourced some 4.5ah cells. Batteries continue to improve. Hopefully in the near future we will have 5 ah cells with 25amp discharge rates.I'm not saying you're wrong, but opposite? Not necessary. But in recent times, pushing Li-Ion's borders, the highest capacity batteries have had a tendency to have lower discharge rate.But thats not the problem I'm talking avout here. A compact battery like 3Ah or 2Ah for that matter, will need to have 2-4 times the discharge rate than its normal size(4-6Ah) to huge size like this 9 Ah monster and a dual 18v battery setup. Usually you would measure discharge rate (and charge) in C. Which translate back from each cell's Ah specs. But yeah, the highest capacity-modells can usually have a bit lower discharge rate (much lower C). But again, that have not always been the case, which is why measuring in "C's" have made sense. I agree the specified discharge rate follows pretty close the voltage drop (i.e internal resistance), but in reality, it's just specs and will not always translate to the exact same thing in reality (not my point though). Anyways, in the end, comparing with a random cell is not verry applicable in this situation. For once, Its implementation and use (cooling, the loads characteristics and the controller) does impact, and we need to know the exact modell nr. On the cell to compare. But the fact I really is talking about is that the compact modells have to deliver more than twice amperage and have half the internal reistance than a larger pack just to keep track. Most compact batteries (10,8V or 18V) usually have larger than 1,5Ah cells, so in the end, comparing a modern 1,5Ah Li-Ion battery with a modern 3Ah is more a curiosity than comperable. If we are comparing 1,5Ah cells to 2Ah, 2,5Ah and 3Ah, you will in reality end up comparing older battery tech to newer. My point is that that people should know that compact modells seriously limits how much juice you can get from it. (Some produsers probably use the same cells) making the power draw half or less. It doesn't have to be the limiting cause, but it could in some cases. Example: My 650W output drills obviously needs all the power it can get (it probably draws at least 1 Kw from the battery). Would belive a compact 2Ah battery (no cell's in parallell) would limit its power a fair bit. Compare it to the mentioned 1,5Ah Samsung cell. 25A Discharge rate (540W) would only manage half that it needs. But the 220W output impact, would probably not be limited at all by a smaller battery at all. I'm sure we don't really dissagre here C harris, just a bit misunderstanding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nalu Rash Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Wow you guys really know your stuff. I'm probably talking out of my butt here but I wonder if it would be possible to make a cordless tool adapter that would allow a cordless tool to plug in through an extension cord. Just a random thought I hadSent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Harris Posted June 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Andrull,I'm not sure what your point of disagreement is. It sounds like you have some experience with lithium polymer packs. They usually advertise the C rating of the cells. You can take the C rating multiply by the Ah rating to get the discharge rate in amps. Internal resistance affects what the C rating is for the battery.Have you found where the C ratings are for the Samsung 18650 cells? I haven't been able to find them published. Samsung just publishes the max continuous discharge rate in amps.At the end of the day what matters is that the pack can provide enough amps to the tool. The difference in Ah rating just means longer run times. The 3.0ah cells havent caught up to the 1.5 and 2.0 ah cells yet in max discharge rate. The way Milwaukee has built these packs (3 in parallel) will give the best of both. Plenty of amps and long run times. The only downside is size and weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Harris Posted June 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Wow you guys really know your stuff. I'm probably talking out of my butt here but I wonder if it would be possible to make a cordless tool adapter that would allow a cordless tool to plug in through an extension cord. Just a random thought I hadSent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using TapatalkOne of my other hobbies is RC airplanes and helicopters. You have to learn all about this stuff or you'll end up with a crashed plane. One of my airplanes has a brushless motor that puts out the power of a 30cc gas engine. It will use up a 5 ah lithium polymer pack in about 4 mins if you stay in the throttle. It would be possible to make an adapter. It just needs to convert AC power to DC like a computer power supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrull Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Wow you guys really know your stuff. I'm probably talking out of my butt here but I wonder if it would be possible to make a cordless tool adapter that would allow a cordless tool to plug in through an extension cord. Just a random thought I hadSent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using TapatalkIt's plausible, and have used a cordeless drill connected to both a battery pack and a PC power supply. It was used as a winch that run on both corded power when the machine was connected to the grid, and battery-power when it ain't. Problem was that it needed some extra large capacitors on the output to take on the huuuge current spike (measured at least 60-70 Amp), even tough it was a very weak drill that only pulled around 10-15A average. Before i installed the capacitor, it's current limiter would get triggered. And a larger PSU (size of the larger ones in stationary PC's) would be needed to feed a modern high-powered drill. Not very convenient, but if you buy a connector and have a "old" PSU it should not be hard to modify. At least if you use it for a 10,8V/12V drill. For 18V you would need a PSU with higher voltage rating. :-) F.eks: A dozen laptop adapters in parallell (with around 18-20v output) Caution! They need to have the same voltage output, and even then they should be similiar to get a good enough balance. (though they have a fairly high voltage drop which makes the load balance better) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Harris Posted June 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 http://www.grainger.com/product/GREENLEE-Cordless-AC-Adaptor-6CCJ6?s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/6CCJ6_AS01?$smthumb$Greenlee is already making one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric - TIA Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Agree. Its nice having the compacts batteries for impacts and drills, 5.0 for bigger drills, saws and more and the 9.0 for high demand stuff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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