Todd308

First kudos for the testing, it's nice to see someone really push these tools, and be willing to take them apart and compare internals. Most of the time reviews don't really do enough abusive testing to give real info. That said I think it's pretty harsh to come down on Milwaukee for the red lithium batteries. How many years did Dewalt use substandard capacity sub C nicad cells in XR packs, till what 2006-2007? probably a decade after better cells were available. The fact dewalt still charges $80-90 for a nicad XRP pack is ridiculous. I will give dewalt credit for interchangeability though, I really believe that's what earned them their huge following, customers knowing they will be supported down the road. Also good for them in sticking with Nicad for so long, they may not have the capacity but they take more charging/temperature abuse than Nimh or Lion did especially early on. Other companies have dropped the ball on this. There are higher capacity 18650 cells than any cordless tool is using even today, probably due to cost, but there are almost always better options in battery cells by the time any power tool hits the market. If you really want to see something consumer friendly lets see user replaceable individual cell packs. That way when a cell dies users are not stuck paying $50-150 for a battery pack. It would be easy, 123, 18650, subC cells are all commonly available in the button top versions just like AA's are. I've heard the excuses that cordless tool companies don't want users replacing battery cells, putting them in wrong, using the wrong cells etc. It's a cope out, plain and simple. When was the last time you saw anyone that made device or charger using AA's saying "We can't do that, people will kill themselves!" Makers of AA chargers are still making them even though people could put non-rechargeable batteries in them. They didn't stop making remote controls that use AAA/AA's because people might put cells in them backwards. It's simply because that's where these power tool companies make their big profits. As to the M12 vs 12v Max.....having used both quite a bit the 12v max does have a power/run time advantage, but it's slight in most cases with the new red batteries. Dewalt should have an advantage they are 2 years late to the market. I like the feel of the dewalt handle but I don't notice any more fatigue, or discomfort with the M12 system. M12 batteries are cheaper. I like that the dewalt tools stand up on the battery (though it tends to encourage me to put them places they fall off of!), but in some M12 tools a flat battery would be annoying such as the palm nailer or rotary tool, and Milwaukee now offers their red lithium XC battery that should easily crush the 12v max in run times in a similar size package since it appears the normal red lithium is close in run time. I don't see that as a big deal because for their intended uses/market the standard batteries are more than enough. As to the milwaukee shutting off under extreme use, yes, for a very good reason, the dewalt might be able to be pushed harder without shutting down, but for how long, how much potential long term damage is that doing to the tool? You can drive a car longer with no oil in the engine without a computer controlled oil pressure shut off too, but that doens't mean it's better when you have to replace the motor, only that it allowed you to do more damage to it. What draws people to the M12 line is simply the number of tools and they offer and to me they seem a bit more compact than the dewalts (though not with the XC battery). The M12 dremel like tool pulled me into the line (it crushes the worthless dewalt brand cordless rotary tools) Having 30 plus tools to choose from allows a home owner to easily buy one tool with a couple battery packs and buy several other bare tools and not spend a ton of money. I see neither of these systems for heavy all day multiple tool use, the 12v Max is so close in size to the M18 or 20v Max with the slim batteries that for hard use most people are going to go that way to start with. Hopefully dewalt starts releasing some more tools as their current selection just doesn't encourage people to buy them. For not much more money you can jump to an 18v/20v system with slim batteries and be really close in size/weight with a lot more tool for not much more money. This is my other complaint with the dewalt 12v Max. No bare tools (at least that I can find aside the light) so you have to spend significantly more money and find a place to store several chargers that most people don't need. The typical home owner is also going to end up with way too many batteries wasting away unused. You can buy 2-3 reconditioned bare M12 tools for the price of one 12v Max tool. Also I've yet to see any dewalt 12v max reconditioned tools, perhaps since it's their first year they are trying to encourage new tool only sales, but you find M12 reconditioned tools available that haven't been on the market a year yet. The 5 year warranty is a plus in my book too, for the casual user. Most of us here probably use our tools enough that we know very quickly if a tool has a defect, but a home owner might not use some of their tools more than a couple times a year, and maybe on a demanding project only ever couple years, so having the extra warranty time might be huge for them. I know lots of home owners with cordless tools that have never used them enough in a single project to completely drain a single battery, so for them longer is better. The only thing that drains their batteries dead is lack of use. Both are good tool lines, but the 12v max system to me isn't small/compact enough to sell itself on that merit alone, especially now that the 20v max is out, and so far the lack of tools in the line doesn't encourage purchases there either. I think the 12v max is a bit more refined than the M12, and it should be for as long as it took them to get to market, but with such a small tool selection I don't see them taking much market share, however that hopefully will change down the road.