Jump to content

Table for circular saw - design help needed.


rdst_1

Recommended Posts

Hi guys,

I had posted a thread about the kind of multi function wood working machines that are available in India and as others pointed out, they aren't made with safety in mind.

Buying good quality machines from reputable manufacturers are gonna cost more than my house and they are only used by big furniture makers over here due to their high costs.

So, I think I would be better off re-purposing a nice Circular Saw like the Bosch GKS -235 into a table saw for my use. That way, I could add features like the Micro-jig splitter and a good movable fence among other things.

The jointer/planer on those machines I mentioned above is good enough, but the circular saw part is ill designed and hence, even if I end up getting one of those machines I would be much better off building this table for my circular saw.

So I am thinking of going for a thick cast iron table.

I am guessing a 4'x4'x1" table should do the trick and I can add in-feed and out-feed tables as needed. The stock that I will be working on is 10" x 5" and in varying lengths from 6' to 12'.

Since I don't have experience working on a table saw, all I have got are Youtube videos to help me design and add necessary features to the table

So it would really help me if you guys could pitch in with your ideas and suggestions on what design considerations and features I should inculcate in my table.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was gonna go with Bosch GKS 235 which has a 235mm blade and 85mm depth cut at 90°.
However after posting this thread, I got a chance to talk to one of the manufacturers of the multi-purpose woodworking machines I have mentioned above.

I was going to build a router sled to joint and plane whatever stock I was going to get. However after calculating how much wood I was going to have to work on ( a 3000sq ft vaulted false ceiling, 12 doors and 20 window panels and possibly 1000 sq ft of hardwood flooring), it made more sense to go with the above mentioned machine for it's planer and jointer combo as it is just $700 with a 3HP motor.

So, the manufacturer I had a chat with, agreed to build a custom machine for me, where I am going to redesign the table saw portion of the machine.
I can go for a 14" or even a 16" blade but I think I am going to stick with 12" as 14" will be a little too much for a 3HP motor and I don't want to go for a 5HP motor.

So, the end product will supposedly be a one of a kind machine in India with a 13" jointer, a 8" thicknesser and a 12" table saw, all in one. The machine will feature a clutch system as well which will allow the user to run the table saw and jointer/planer individually as well as simultaneously, if needed.

I am going to take cues from all the well established table saws and see what all features I can include in my version.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This sounds intriguing, it's quite a different culture in your part of the world.

Do you do this type of work year round?



The big furniture shops that make quality furniture use products from SCM and Felder.
In India, in old days, houses might have used wood in construction, but in today's world, wood is limited to just doors and windows and in my part of the woods, for a vaulted false ceiling.
So, the wood workers don't have a choice but to work with such combo machines as they don't have a booming business and hence low budgets when it comes to investing in machines. Also most of the work is done at the site and hence easier to lug with one heavy machine than several.

About me, I am a complete newbie when it comes to working with wood. I have been screwed over by my contractor who has been doing sub-par work and hence I decided to let him go and take a shot at it myself. I will be hiring a skilled worker who has been doing this work on such machines for some time now. He will be working on a daily wage and I will try and learn the basic skills from him.
Hopefully, I will be able to teach him a few things as well about safety and using different jigs to make work easier as these guys don't have any awareness of the modern preferred safety methods. They don't even wear a mask and work with bare hands. Never seen any of them use a push block. However, since they are usually 2 guys working in tandem, they are able to keep their hands away from the blade. One stands at the infeed and the other at the outfeed sides. The person at the outfeed side ensures that the wood doesn't bind together after clearing the table saw blade while the other person feeds from a safe distance.
They don't have to usually make small cuts as they are usually making window frames and similar big stuff only. I however, will make them build and use push blocks and hopefully they carry these lessons forward with them.

As for the machine, I might hold on to it for some time longer as I will be having to build some kitchen cabinets in an year or so and then I might probably sell it. But if I fall in love with woodworking, who knows.
After the work at my house is finished in 2 months or so, I have promised to build a Bassinet for my sister whose first child is due in July. So the machine will stay with me till I have at least built that.
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On January 31, 2017 at 7:20 PM, JimboS1ice said:

What blade size? I would reduce your table thickness to maximize the depth of your cut, make sure you use can handle lengthy rip cuts, can't saw I would recommend making your own table saw but I'm interested to see how it turns out


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Something I'm personally scared to try to build, but I have seen some excellent ones done on YouTube, and I wouldn't have any issues with using them. 

Go for it OP.. I think I can speak for many of us and say- do a 

build thread on it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something I'm personally scared to try to build, but I have seen some excellent ones done on YouTube, and I wouldn't have any issues with using them. 

Go for it OP.. I think I can speak for many of us and say- do a 

build thread on it!

The design has changed. I am not going to use a circular saw anymore.

Instead I will be adding a proper sliding table saw to what is essentially a 3HP Jointer-Planer combo sold in India.

The machine comes with a clutch that allows one to run either one or both simultaneously.

They already come with a table saw that is very rudimentary design and I'm going to work with the manufacturer to design it along the lines of a modern European table saw like a basic Hammer.

Good thing the manufacturer I have chosen manufacturers their own bearings as well apart from the basic multi-purpose woodworking machine, so using linear bearings for a sliding table is going to be right up their alley.

I am going to their factory next week and that will be probably when we finalize the design.

Meanwhile, I will be picking up a few precision measuring devices like a Dial Indicator, Ruler, Protractor and a Straight Edge from Insize. All the above mentioned devices will come with both German and US certification and I deem them to be a worthy investment at this stage so I can make sure that the manufacturer maintains precision when manufacturing my custom machine.

I am thinking of asking him to increase the thicknessing capacity from 8" as well.

Will then move on to an aluminium fabricator and make him design and manufacture the fence and a few jigs for precision work.

I was first thinking of mounting the precision measurement devices directly onto the machine, but I think it would be better to get the scales and guides manufactured with the reference of the devices than mount them directly to the machine.

I know someone who works in the Legal and Meterology department and I might save some money by borrowing his instruments rather than purchasing mine, but that will be decided next week as well.

I would definitely love to do a build thread on this.

These are the kinda machines I will be modifying for my use.

http://www.professional-power-tool-guide.com/power-tool-forum/index.php?/topic/12004-Have-you-guys-seen-or-used-such-a-woodworking-machine

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The last few days, I have been reading a lot of articles and forum discussions and watching a lot of youtube. The main priority, for me to even think of attempting something like this, has been to incorporate SAFETY, in what are quite capable but unsafe machines we have available over here in India.

 

My usage will be a lot of ripping of 5"x10"x10' of medium to good quality cedar and other softwood. There will be cross-cutting as well but that would only constitute 15-20% of the workload. Sheet goods might be needed to be cut but that would not even be 5% of the entire workload.

 

Keeping that in mind, I am looking to inculcate a lot of features of something like a Hammer K3 Winner, but mine will probably have an even longer sliding table if things stay in budget.

So the plan is to have a machine in which both sides of the table slide, instead of just one side in regular sliding table saws.

I need to get your opinion on something before I put my plans into action.

 

When you are feeding wood, especially when ripping thin strips of wood, a feather board is needed to provide support to keep the stock pushed against the fence. So my idea replaces the feather board with another fence that support the other edge of the stock. So now, we have two fences that support both sides of the stock. Since my fences will be made from Aluminium Extrusions, we can go ahead and add clamps which will clamp the stock down on to the table. Now that all four faces of the wood is supported, we can just move the whole table through the blade and achieve the rip we were looking for.

 

I would love to hear opinions of experienced wood workers on here as to what problems can occur which make implementing such a setup a failure. Are there chances of burning the wood on the cut faces because the clamping of the wood from all four sides makes it too tight. I was thinking of not applying too much pressure with the fences, just enough to hold the wood square against the fence and not too much that could make the stock move upwards due to the pressure.

 

So basically, instead of feeding the wood through we clamp it to the table and move the table through the blade, while keeping a safe distance from both, the blade and the stock.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will this have any type of riving knife? Are you worried about the wood pinching together? Also the point of a feather board is to keep the wood from coming back at you. I don't think another fence will do the same thing.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Yes, it will have either a riving knife or a splitter whichever I find easier to implement.
The featherboard, IMO, also helps in making sure the thin rip crosses the blade and doesn't get stuck.

I am hoping the clamps which will be pushing the stock downwards ensure that the wood doesn't bind.
The fences won't be setup to exert huge pressure, rather just ensure that the stock is square to the fence. Compared to that pressure, the downward pressure from the clamps will be much stronger. That alone, I am hoping, ensures that the stock doesn't move at all and hence it doesn't bind.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Guys,

The main machine, which is a jointer-planer is nearly ready. The design for the sliding table is also nearly finalized. 

I however need to decide on which blade to buy and size the motor accordingly.

The stock that I get over here is 5x10.

What size saw blade will I need to buy to rip such thick stock in one go?

I am hoping to buy a thin-kerf blade and use stabilizers so that I can get away with using a smaller motor.

 

From my research, I should be able to get my hands on the following companies, even if it means waiting for a few days -

1) Freud

2) CMT

3) Leitz

4) Tenryu

5) Kanefusa.

 

Recently came  across this discussion which made me even more confused when chosing which company to buy the blade from - http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/forum/jlc-online-peer-to-peer-forums/tools-equipment/39323-forget-freud-cmt-blows-them-away

 

The only blade I have come across which is big enough and has a thin kerf is this 16"+ beam saw blade from Freud - https://www.amazon.com/Freud-D1632X-16-Inch-General-Purpose/dp/B0002AJQQM

If I can employ this blade, I might be able to get away with a 4HP motor. I don't have a 3-ph connection yet, otherwise I would have easily gone for a 7.5-10HP 3ph motor instead, but my 3 ph connection is still a few months away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why not email a couple of blade manufactures and see what HP they suggest for that size wood and Blade? I think 4HP would be underpowered. All of the 14 - 16 in blade table saws run 7.5 to 10 HP motors.

 

I recently purchased a 6 1/5 CMT blade for my cordless circular saw but haven't used it yet. I currently have a bit of a beef with CMT but don't want to say what it is until I see how they resolve the issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why not email a couple of blade manufactures and see what HP they suggest for that size wood and Blade? I think 4HP would be underpowered. All of the 14 - 16 in blade table saws run 7.5 to 10 HP motors.
 
I recently purchased a 6 1/5 CMT blade for my cordless circular saw but haven't used it yet. I currently have a bit of a beef with CMT but don't want to say what it is until I see how they resolve the issue.

I picked up a CMT blade too but it's still in the plastic, it's their take on the Diablo non-ferrous metal blade


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why not email a couple of blade manufactures and see what HP they suggest for that size wood and Blade? I think 4HP would be underpowered. All of the 14 - 16 in blade table saws run 7.5 to 10 HP motors.
 
I recently purchased a 6 1/5 CMT blade for my cordless circular saw but haven't used it yet. I currently have a bit of a beef with CMT but don't want to say what it is until I see how they resolve the issue.


You seem to be right. All table saws with 14-16 blades have 7.5-10HP motors. That's why, I was looking at the Freud Thin Kerf 16 5-16" D1632X beam saw blade. It is generally used in a handheld circular beam saw and is powered with a 2000-2200 watt motor. So a 4 HP motor with stabilizers might work for the same in a table saw. A reviewer on Amazon has been using the same on his table saw with excellent results. It's just that the blade is ATB and I would have preferred a true ripping blade which is thin kerf.
I'll follow your advice and mail the manufacturers and see what they have to say. Both CMT and Freud are being imported by third -party vendors here in India while Leitz, Kanefusa and Tenryu have physical presence, so they might be a better fit for me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Freud's website they have a16in  36 tooth Heavy Duty ripping blade. It says the ideal working range in 3/4 to 2 3/4 thick. Thats an odd range for a 16in blade.

 

On the Diablo's site it doesn't have an ideal thickness range of the16in  32 tooth thin kerf blade. 

 

A Makita beam saw spins at 2200 RPM.

 

 Oliver 16in table saw spin at 3750 rpm

Northfield 16in table saws spin at 3600

There is a old 16in  Tannewitz   table saw on eBay with a 16in blade and 5HP motor but it doesn't say the RPM, but it only has a 4in depth of cut.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TANNEWITZ-16-034-TILTING-ARBOR-5-HP-TABLE-SAW-VERY-GOOD-/120736253538

 

I guess your idea of a beam saw blade may work if you could keep the RPMs low enough. But I do not think it would be ideal. A lot would depend on how many board feet you plan on cutting. A thin kerf blade would have a higher tendency to wobble as it heats up on long cuts.

 

(this is purely an exercise on research for me, all my experience is on 10in table saws between 1.75 hp and 4 hp) 

 

Talking with the blade manufacturers would probably be your best bet as they would be conservative to cover their own butts.

 

I've read good things about Tenryu blades, but I have never used them.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Freud's website they have a16in  36 tooth Heavy Duty ripping blade. It says the ideal working range in 3/4 to 2 3/4 thick. Thats an odd range for a 16in blade.
 
On the Diablo's site it doesn't have an ideal thickness range of the16in  32 tooth thin kerf blade. 



Tenryu got back to me and said that a 14 inch table saw should have a max depth capacity of 5 inches, but they don't recommend ripping such thick stock on a TS in one go.

And that's what basically every blade manufacturer says. Each one of them, whether it is Freud, CMT, Forrest etc. state the max depth of cut at 3-1/2 inches even for their 18" and 20" blades. They do add that higher thicknesses can be cut but will result in a loss of finish. I have seen people report that they cut 5-6" stock with those blades with great finish, so it is just a ploy by companies to post conservative numbers to cover their butts.

Since, I am not sure when I will be getting the 3 phase connection, I'll just go with a 3/4HP motor and a 12 inch blade for now. What people generally do with such blades is that they cut halfway through the stock and then flip it over and cut it through from the other side to achieve the rip.
In my design, the blade is fixed, while the table moves up and down. So, I won't even have to flip the stock. All I'll have to do is lower the height of the table appropriately after the first pass and that should allow me to rip stock even thicker than 5 inches. The stock will be secured from all sides by push clamps providing more than adequate force that keeps the stock stationary even in case of a kickback. I hope it works as I have envisioned it in my mind.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

So, the jointer-planer combo machine has arrived.
I will get around to making the sliding table for the saw next week. I need your help in choosing the clamps which will be needed to hold down the stock on the sliding table.
I have decided to build a modular table, whose length I can increase or decrease depending upon the length of the stock.

I am going to be doing a lot of re-sawing on this table saw. Also the blade I am looking to order will leave a mirror finish when ripping and hence only 1-1/2 to 2 inches could be ripped in one go. So I need to decide on which clamps to go for to hold the stock down with enough force that it doesn't go flying off in case of a kickback during re-sawing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Member Statistics

    16,190
    Total Members
    6,555
    Most Online
    Willm
    Newest Member
    Willm
    Joined
×
×
  • Create New...