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New 12v lasers from DeWalt! Packaged in a TSTAK case!


The.Handyman

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5 minutes ago, Grumpy MSG said:

DeWALT's 12V MAX line is so bad, run off and buy Milwaukee's tool.

 

Milwaukee doesn't make 12v green's. 

 

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Somebody mentioned 50 hours of run time

 

That's with the 5 single point laser, not the standard cross line lasers. It's more like 8-10 with them. 

 

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If you can't handle those simple steps, you are probably in the wrong business.

 

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58 minutes ago, Grumpy MSG said:

To go along with all the WHINE!

 

Here is the easy solution: If you don't like it, don't buy it. DeWALT's 12V MAX line is so bad, run off and buy Milwaukee's tool. Somebody mentioned 50 hours of run time, that is 5 ten hour days and the battery lasted all week. So carry the battery in the unit, keep the spare in box, change it when needed. go home at the  end of the day and slap the depleted battery in the slow charger you have there that charges 12s and 20s (chances are, right now if you own 20V MAX tools you already own a charger that works with the 12V MAX batteries). The next day you grab the charged battery throw it in the box and you will have it in a few weeks when you need to change it again. If you can't handle those simple steps, you are probably in the wrong business.

What does the MSG stand for? The rest of your username is self-explanatory ?. Green lasers are battery pigs. The "FastCharger" doesn't charge 12v Max. A laser that runs off their most common platform (rather than one that barely exists) and doesn't cost $1600 CAD shouldn't be too much to ask for. And by "ask" I mean quietly hope and wish and not vocalize because we ought not to verbally berate Lord Stanley Blackdecker or he might withhold future tools from us and raise our tithes and taxes to punish us filthy peasants while sharing neither his cheese nor his wine and we will be left only with whine as far as the eye can see and not a drop to drink ?.

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14 minutes ago, Hugh Jass said:

 

Milwaukee doesn't make 12v green's. 

 

That's with the 5 single point laser, not the standard cross line lasers. It's more like 8-10 with them. 

So you can't get one from Milwaukee, you have  been let down by "Big Red", but maybe in the future...

 

8-10 hours run time, might be one battery a day or start into the second battery. Go home and charge them both, just rotate between which one starts the day on the laser.

 

I get that DeWALT's 12V MAX platform is limited to the other tools that are offered with it, basically all their cameras, IR and other specialty stuff as well as the adjustable grip reciprocating saw and a handful of drills and drivers. I see them as compact and lightweight tools. I have the drill, impact and the clutched screwdriver. I am a fan of the little clutched driver, It has a 1/4" bit holder instead of a chuck, has a slower speed than low speed in the drill, so it is very controllable at driving screws in thin material. It won't blow through like an impact has a tendency to do in a blink of an eye. I like that most of the same chargers works with both the 12 and 20 volt lines. It however won't work with the stuff that is tailored to the FlexVolt line.

3 minutes ago, Bremon said:

What does the MSG stand for? The rest of your username is self-explanatory ?. Green lasers are battery pigs. The "FastCharger" doesn't charge 12v Max. A laser that runs off their most common platform (rather than one that barely exists) and doesn't cost $1600 CAD shouldn't be too much to ask for. And by "ask" I mean quietly hope and wish and not vocalize because we ought not to verbally berate Lord Stanley Blackdecker or he might withhold future tools from us and raise our tithes and taxes to punish us filthy peasants while sharing neither his cheese nor his wine and we will be left only with whine as far as the eye can see and not a drop to drink ?.

That would be the US Army's 3 letter acronym for Master Sergeant, and with it comes a lot of experience dealing with whining over stupid stuff.

 

You complain that it is in a platform they don't have a lot of stuff in the 12V MAX line, then you complain when something comes out in the line. If you don't have any 12V MAX yet, you buy the kit and get 2 batteries and a charger in a box. How difficult is that? You do have the tools? You can buy a bare tool. DeWALT's "big" battery is 2.0 Ah, so one of the 4 amp chargers is going to take a half hour to charge. If you have 20V MAX already, chances are you already have one of the 4 amp chargers, you could go with a bare tool and a pair of 2.0 Ah batteries from Home Depot at about $75. Then you could buy a ToughSystem box, if that is what you carry your tools in.

 

Would it have been more convenient if it had come out in 20V MAX, probably so. I could see the same folks who are complaining right now, complaining about how the laser won't work with their 3.0/9.0 FlexVolt batteries, they have to use it with a compact battery, blah, blah, blah.

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All good @Grumpy MSG, my problem with 12v Max is I want them to give it the CXT treatment; devote enough time and money to it to kickstart it into a competitor for M12 or Bosch, not a token line to say they make compacts. I think we are better served by vocalizing improvements we would like to see. If there wasn't a notable pushback on the FlexVolt for having no blade left option or hook would we be seeing leaks of the yellow Makita rear handle copycat? I'm not sure we would. Obviously, I feel Dewalt doesn't offer a compelling enough product in this segment to get my money. I'm not alone. Maybe down the road they'll adapt if for 20v like they have with some other bits and bobs. More choices means more happy customers. 

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Ya man gotta have the dots......need to plumb walls....laser dot ,bottom plate to top plate...or plumb a 60' gable wall.....plus green for outside setting deck ledgers.....I wish @Bremon I didn't have to buy many different lasers...hated the Bosch,I was told PLS  had a much smaller dot diameter ,,nope...last one was Hilti...it's ok....can't read it in bright sun...I'm hoping the " green " Dewalt 5 dot / crossline is the last one I buy......

.        ...I wish  Dewalt had all the cordless tools I needed..to be a one brand guy..but no one has a full line of all the framing/deck tools I need............I never used cordless tools before ,I actually started with the 12v Dewalt line and quickly realized ,there was no line of tools...went to 20v max...

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3 hours ago, Grumpy MSG said:

So you can't get one from Milwaukee, you have  been let down by "Big Red", but maybe in the future...

 

8-10 hours run time, might be one battery a day or start into the second battery. Go home and charge them both, just rotate between which one starts the day on the laser.

 

I get that DeWALT's 12V MAX platform is limited to the other tools that are offered with it, basically all their cameras, IR and other specialty stuff as well as the adjustable grip reciprocating saw and a handful of drills and drivers. I see them as compact and lightweight tools. I have the drill, impact and the clutched screwdriver. I am a fan of the little clutched driver, It has a 1/4" bit holder instead of a chuck, has a slower speed than low speed in the drill, so it is very controllable at driving screws in thin material. It won't blow through like an impact has a tendency to do in a blink of an eye. I like that most of the same chargers works with both the 12 and 20 volt lines. It however won't work with the stuff that is tailored to the FlexVolt line.

That would be the US Army's 3 letter acronym for Master Sergeant, and with it comes a lot of experience dealing with whining over stupid stuff.

 

You complain that it is in a platform they don't have a lot of stuff in the 12V MAX line, then you complain when something comes out in the line. If you don't have any 12V MAX yet, you buy the kit and get 2 batteries and a charger in a box. How difficult is that? You do have the tools? You can buy a bare tool. DeWALT's "big" battery is 2.0 Ah, so one of the 4 amp chargers is going to take a half hour to charge. If you have 20V MAX already, chances are you already have one of the 4 amp chargers, you could go with a bare tool and a pair of 2.0 Ah batteries from Home Depot at about $75. Then you could buy a ToughSystem box, if that is what you carry your tools in.

 

Would it have been more convenient if it had come out in 20V MAX, probably so. I could see the same folks who are complaining right now, complaining about how the laser won't work with their 3.0/9.0 FlexVolt batteries, they have to use it with a compact battery, blah, blah, blah.

 

We're not whining over stupid stuff, it's simply logical. There is zero need for this tool to be 12v instead of 20v, at all...zip, zilch, nada. I'd bet money that Dewalt's sales comparison between 20v and 12v is at least 10,000 to 1. What they must be trying to do is compel people to buy in, but it's not going to work well since their 12v offerings are complete and total shit outside of these levels. They waited way, way too long and Milwaukee has dominated the category in amazing fashion, even in the professional sector. Dewalt will never compete at this level this late in the game, they're pouring a lot of resources into going bigger, not smaller...and then all the sudden this? It's kind of pathetic IMO, as though they looked at M12 and said "HA, they don't have green lasers! Let's make those because they don't have them!" when they don't have really anywhere else to go with it. As said it would make a lot more sense for them to eliminate the 12v tools and blow out a bunch of 8v ultra compacts for the DIY crowd since 12v is already so highly competitive and complete, they might do really well there. Their gyroscopic screwdriver and small worklight is well received...but again, the only two things available. WTF. 

 

Anyway this will be my last comment on the subject. I hate repeating myself. 

 

Also thank you for your service. 

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2 hours ago, Bremon said:

All good @Grumpy MSG, my problem with 12v Max is I want them to give it the CXT treatment; devote enough time and money to it to kickstart it into a competitor for M12 or Bosch, not a token line to say they make compacts. I think we are better served by vocalizing improvements we would like to see. If there wasn't a notable pushback on the FlexVolt for having no blade left option or hook would we be seeing leaks of the yellow Makita rear handle copycat? I'm not sure we would. Obviously, I feel Dewalt doesn't offer a compelling enough product in this segment to get my money. I'm not alone. Maybe down the road they'll adapt if for 20v like they have with some other bits and bobs. More choices means more happy customers. 

So I just took a look at the CXT line as well as the M12 FUEL available at Home Depot, Makita and Milwaukee both offer brushless motors on some tools, while DeWALT offers none. All three have a light available, while DeWALT has a swiveling light instead of fixed. Both Makita and DeWALT offer a power adapter, but DeWALT's works with both 12 and 20, Makita's and Milwaukee's radios are both limited to 12 volt, while DeWALT has multiple sizes and shapes of radios and speakers that run off 12 and 20 and some that charge batteries too. All three offer reciprocating saws, drills, impact drivers and 1/4" hex drive drivers. Milwaukee and DeWALT both offer 3/8" impact wrenches.

 

Makita does have a hammer drill, a 1" capacity saw, tiny tile saw, an oscillating multi-tool and a jig saw that DeWALT doesn't offer. Milwaukee meanwhile offers a hammer drill, a right angle drill, an SDS plus rotary hammer, a larger circular saw (1 5/8" capacity), a 3/8" ratchet, an oscillating multi-tool and 1/4" impact. DeWALT offers a cordless wall scanner, imaging thermometer and inspection camera that will go through a pretty small hole as well as the lasers that are supposed to be the topic of this discussion. So each of the three brands offer something the others don't in the 12 volt line. Just speculating on my part, but Makita probably doesn't sell a ton of those tiny tile or circular saws, Milwaukee probably doesn't sell many of the SDS plus hammers or the 1/4" impacts, heck I don't even know if I've ever seen a 1/4" impact socket. I am sure DeWALT's cameras and scanners aren't high volume items either.

 

As for that saw you spoke of, DeWALT is not North American Aviation, which had the first Mustang prototype flying less than 5 months after the contract was signed with the UK. I am guessing they had it in the pipeline already. I see FlexVolt  as DeWALT going after the corded market with a cordless tool. I also recognize that there are tools that are regional favorites. Sidewinders are dominant in the eastern US, while worm drives and hypoids are far more popular out west. What side of the saw is the blade on 90+% of the corded sidewinders you see? Where is the blade on the Skil 77? The great question would be, how did the blade on most cordless saws end up on the left to begin with?

 

 

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Makita CXT is what, 18 months old? The line is already more impressive than 12v Max, which is a senior citizen by comparison at almost 7 years.

 

M12 on the other hand, to say has "some tools the others don't" is hilarious. It's diverse enough to replace the need for 18v tools at all for some people. 2 ratchets, palm nailer, circular saw, multiple lights (lantern, flood, swivel head, etc.), right angle impact, multiple imaging devices from inspection cameras to thermal imagers. Not to mention a ton of specialty tools. The only thing 12v Max has over M12 is a nicer subscanner and more diverse lasers. 

 

M12 is the industry star, Makita is the up-and-comer, Bosch is sort of a has-been, while Dewalt is the never-was. But at least they're putting out these lasers ?

 

As for how fast tool production tools along, have you seen Milwaukee's Rapid prototype design? They can 3D print and build a working prototype ridiculously fast and to think that's limited to them is ridiculous. That's without comparing a saw (a motor, housing, shoe, and miscellaneous parts) to a plane. Dewalt's not-a-worm may have been in works for ages but I'm sure things like the rafter hook it's sure to have weren't omitted for cost cutting like on the sidewinder. 

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@Grumpy MSG...gotta say ,thanks for serving ,my daughter is a Marine....this is one   heck of a discussion over a 12v battery or a AA battery in a laser....

       ....I will say ,as you know ..I'm a Dewalt guy...but..M12 does rule, the 12v world , period (except ergonomics goes to Dewalt) if someone wants the green laser ,gotta buy into Dewalt 12v...that's how it is ..if someone wants ..THE BEST CORDLESS EVERYTHING (but sawzall) THEN YOU GOTTA BUY INTO ...FLEXVOLT........I can't wait for my Dewalt 5 point /cross line Green Laser to arrive.yes with the 12v battery,,,,.....more More  POWA,..More TOOLS,,..Dewalt

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40 minutes ago, Framer joe said:

@Grumpy MSG...gotta say ,thanks for serving ,my daughter is a Marine....this is one   heck of a discussion over a 12v battery or a AA battery in a laser....

       ....I will say ,as you know ..I'm a Dewalt guy...but..M12 does rule, the 12v world , period (except ergonomics goes to Dewalt) if someone wants the green laser ,gotta buy into Dewalt 12v...that's how it is ..if someone wants ..THE BEST CORDLESS EVERYTHING (but sawzall) THEN YOU GOTTA BUY INTO ...FLEXVOLT........I can't wait for my Dewalt 5 point /cross line Green Laser to arrive.yes with the 12v battery,,,,.....more More  POWA,..More TOOLS,,..Dewalt

12v makita is best of both worlds.

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I don't look at the 12V world the same way as some folks do. I don't see the need for multiple everythings, heck I am the guy who is doing the slow slide over to 20V MAX from the 18V XRP line. I don't want lots of duplication of tools. I am not bothered that DeWALT's biggest battery is 2.0 Ah, while Makita offers a 4 and Milwaukee a 6, Framer joe always say "more POWA!", to me 12V means light weight and compact. If I were to suggest additions to the line it would probably be maybe a right angle drill with a 3/8" chuck that would allow the bit to pass clean through it (I don't know that you could make it pass that big a bit, it might be limited to 1/4" pass through), an oscillating multi-tool and a ratchet (maybe they could make it 1/4" and 3/8" changeable).

 

I don't really see the need for me to own a 12V 5 3/8" saw, an 18V 6 1/2" and an 18V 7 1/4 saw all with the blade on the left. My preference would be one saw with a left blade and one with a right blade, one a 6 1/2" and the other 7 1/4" works fine for me, I am good with one being cordless and one corded. I don't need cordless everything especially if it is going to have a hose hooked to it to collect dust like a track saw or sander. I don't have a need for batteries to charge in fifteen minutes, especially if that leads to heat generated loss of battery life. 

 

As far as the brands go, I don't spend much time bashing any of them, I might point out one's strengths over the other, and I recognize that DeWALT's 12V MAX is long in the tooth compared to Makita's CXT and Milwaukee's 12V FUEL, but here are a few observations. The CXT line exists because the previous 12V line had some issues causing the switch to the slide on pack. Milwaukee's line continues to be stick pack but it's bigger packs end up with a big flat pack like a slide on hanging off of it. Bosch's line is similar to DeWALT's in the number of limited tools and is stick type pack. What I like about DeWALT's line over the others is the 12V and 20V MAX  lines have more compatibility than the others. Plenty of radios, speakers, most of the chargers work with both batteries, as well as the USB adapter and the heated clothing working with both battery lines. So whether it is the battery to the little 12V driver I like or the 20V 5 Ah from my string trimmer or blower it is going in the same 2 bay charger. 

 

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The point of a well rounded line isn't so you can buy multiple sizes of every style of tool, like your saw example (though you're on a forum of people who wouldn't think less of you for it), the point is  everyone can have a tool closest to exactly what they need for their particular workflow. It also helps you stay as closely as possible to the single battery platform ideal ecosystem manufacturers try to sell us on. I'd rather have a 5-3/8 little trim saw and a big 7-1/4 than a 6.5/7.25 combo for instance.

 

12v represents lightweight and compact, as you said, but it should also represent options, and choices for runtime like the 18v class does. Duplication of tools already available in 20v Max is what gives us the lightweight and compact option in the first place. I don't see the issue when every manufacturer offers 6+ drills in the 18v line as well as multiple versions of other tools that getting a compact lightweight 12v version should be an issue. 

 

M12 represents a line about as old as 12v Max that actually gets attention and R&D money. M12 marketshare is what SBD could have if they stopped pretending to give a crap and started actually giving a crap. CXT, regardless of why Makita felt they had to start over, represents a line that is getting serious R&D and marketing. 12v Max represents a token half-assed effort and some nice lasers. Despite my preference for slide packs I can also see that stem packs help fulfill a 12v tools

goal of compact form factor. 

 

As for compatibility, you're describing the charging experience of every person who has M18 and M12 tools: one charger. Not particularly novel. What would be novel is if the lasers in the OP had the same flexibility with batteries that the radios you mention do. Then @Hugh Jass and I would be happy, you wouldn't be reading my whining, and we could all believe Dewalt aren't liars when they say crap like they're "fully committed" to 12v Max. 

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Seems to be a very passionate drive for cross platform battery usage with lasers... If someone could offer suggestions to dewalt or if they are listening. A 20V Max battery holder that could utilise the UNC tripod mount on the bottom with a USB style cable to a second 12V Max battery body. Still able to use the magnetic mounts and would be able to use anyway with a tripod. Easy solution if they aren't just trying to make money from the 12V platform. 

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