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danielicrazy

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Doubt anyone has been able to try and compare em yet since they're new :)

 

From what i understand. Gold bits had the ' flexible' shaft to resist the torque. ( which means that its a softer steel )  and the new impactX  are made from an extra hard steeel with heat threathment to make em stand up to the abuse.

 

Time will tell :)

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On 5/5/2017 at 4:59 PM, danielicrazy said:

Hey,

 

Seeing some new makita impactx bits on the website.  How are these different from the impact gold? step up, step down?  How do they compare?

probably like milwaukee shockwave gen 1 vs gen 2

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11 hours ago, AnonymousJoe said:

I hope not, gen 2 shockwaves suck and snap so easily. I've never broken a makita gold tho

Ive exploded a few makita but nothing like the milwaukees, they aren't nearly as brittle

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Ive exploded a few makita but nothing like the milwaukees, they aren't nearly as brittle

Brittle is Milwaukees middle name!

I have blown up an entire set of carbide drill bits (well, all but 2-3 bits) and quite a few Robertson bits. The crazy thing about the bits is that I tried several lengths too.
The stubby bits are no better than the 6" bits.

I don't mind the Makita bits, no issues yet. I do however, find myself going back to Wera often.


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I'm still not sure that impact rated driver bits make all the difference anyway. I'm still using old dewalt bits from before the days of impact drivers and they very rarely shatter. 

 

I can understand it with society but again, bar a thin wall socket I've had split I've never had a chrome vanadium socket break on an impact wrench. 

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4 hours ago, stductwork said:

I'm still not sure that impact rated driver bits make all the difference anyway. I'm still using old dewalt bits from before the days of impact drivers and they very rarely shatter. 

 

I can understand it with society but again, bar a thin wall socket I've had split I've never had a chrome vanadium socket break on an impact wrench. 

 

Wouldn't surprise me if some brands are a gimmick but with other brands you do notice a slight difference in performance rather durability, something "impacted" rated is generally softer and allows for minor torsion in the bit it self, take the Wiha Terminators for instance are actually a two piece bit which if you grab both ends you can twist it yourself, this allows the bit to absorb the impact blow better, now I have a bunch of Tekton bits that are not impact rated, first use of it I make myself a little prison shiv, they can't absorb the energy like softer bits do

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3 hours ago, JimboS1ice said:

 

Wouldn't surprise me if some brands are a gimmick but with other brands you do notice a slight difference in performance rather durability, something "impacted" rated is generally softer and allows for minor torsion in the bit it self, take the Wiha Terminators for instance are actually a two piece bit which if you grab both ends you can twist it yourself, this allows the bit to absorb the impact blow better, now I have a bunch of Tekton bits that are not impact rated, first use of it I make myself a little prison shiv, they can't absorb the energy like softer bits do

 

You can twist them yourself? So people are paying hundreds for the latest and greatest impact drivers then to go and buy bits and bit holders that actually encourage torque loss? Terrible idea and a waste of money. 

 

Rigidity and as few joints as possible make impact drivers economical. 

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45 minutes ago, stductwork said:

 

You can twist them yourself? So people are paying hundreds for the latest and greatest impact drivers then to go and buy bits and bit holders that actually encourage torque loss? Terrible idea and a waste of money. 

 

Rigidity and as few joints as possible make impact drivers economical. 

 

It's supposed to flex to avoid breakage, same reason impact sockets are softer than regular sockets.

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1 hour ago, BMack37 said:

 

It's supposed to flex to avoid breakage, same reason impact sockets are softer than regular sockets.

 

Well I'm not sure what you mean by softer but if any of the impact sockets I own were to show any give or wear through being softer they'd be going straight back to the manufacturer. 

 

If sockets give at all they not fit for purpose. Example you set your torque wrench to 400nm but the socket 'flex' gives at 350nm(hypothetically), then the socket isn't any good. 

 

As with give in driver bits, again your losing torque so personally I'll stick to normal bits and break 3:1 at 1/3 the cost. On that basis there's no benefit to them. Lost energy from bits just renders high torque impact drivers pointless. At the same time some of these 'torsion' bits wouldn't move under 170nm and if they do the metal is garbage anyway and probably won't last. 

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By softer we don't mean put your nail through it but something harder tends to be more brittle, with the impact energy going through a harder more brittle material it will cause failure, something designed to absorb the energy and transfer it into the fastener is much more beneficial, best example is your impact sockets verse your traditional chrome sockets, polished chrome is hard yet very brittle which is why on impacts you'll see either the socket crack or the chrome finish chip off, and impact sockets material is RELATIVELY softer than a traditional socket much like impact driver bits


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9 hours ago, stductwork said:

 

Well I'm not sure what you mean by softer but if any of the impact sockets I own were to show any give or wear through being softer they'd be going straight back to the manufacturer. 

 

If sockets give at all they not fit for purpose. Example you set your torque wrench to 400nm but the socket 'flex' gives at 350nm(hypothetically), then the socket isn't any good. 

 

As with give in driver bits, again your losing torque so personally I'll stick to normal bits and break 3:1 at 1/3 the cost. On that basis there's no benefit to them. Lost energy from bits just renders high torque impact drivers pointless. At the same time some of these 'torsion' bits wouldn't move under 170nm and if they do the metal is garbage anyway and probably won't last. 

 

All of your impact sockets are softer than regular sockets, when metal gets harder it becomes more brittle...impacting breaks the harder material.

 

Go ahead and do your research: https://www.google.com/webhp?ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#safe=off&q=difference+between+impact+sockets+and+regular+sockets

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11 hours ago, JimboS1ice said:

By softer we don't mean put your nail through it but something harder tends to be more brittle, with the impact energy going through a harder more brittle material it will cause failure.

 

You've completely removed the composite of the metal. Chrome Vanadium or S2 isn't brittle because it's harder, it's brittle because it's higher in carbon. I'll also add I use Chrome sockets on an impact wrench daily and have done for years. To break most chrome sockets the force needed over a long time far exceed the most conventional impact drivers and wrenches. Only higher rated wrenches such as those used by steel erectors would break them down quickly. Impact rated sockets will crack. I believe you follow my instagram, posted a photo of a cracked impact socket just last week.

 

5 hours ago, BMack37 said:

 

All of your impact sockets are softer than regular sockets, when metal gets harder it becomes more brittle...impacting breaks the harder material.

 

Go ahead and do your research: https://www.google.com/webhp?ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#safe=off&q=difference+between+impact+sockets+and+regular+sockets

 

See attached image. On the left is 41xx Steel or as Referred chrome molybdenum. It's not softer than S2 steel at all. It's infact a lot harder. The make up of it is in fact different.2017-05-11_23-00-39.thumb.png.4f717e275dcb5ae87860a8c38a126afe.png

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6 hours ago, stductwork said:

 

You've completely removed the composite of the metal. Chrome Vanadium or S2 isn't brittle because it's harder, it's brittle because it's higher in carbon. I'll also add I use Chrome sockets on an impact wrench daily and have done for years. To break most chrome sockets the force needed over a long time far exceed the most conventional impact drivers and wrenches. Only higher rated wrenches such as those used by steel erectors would break them down quickly. Impact rated sockets will crack. I believe you follow my instagram, posted a photo of a cracked impact socket just last week.

 

 

See attached image. On the left is 41xx Steel or as Referred chrome molybdenum. It's not softer than S2 steel at all. It's infact a lot harder. The make up of it is in fact different.2017-05-11_23-00-39.thumb.png.4f717e275dcb5ae87860a8c38a126afe.png

 

Tensile strength is resistance to break under tension, not a hardness rating. Seriously, just google it, it's well known information. My use of "Soft" doesn't mean weak.

 

Also, of course it's possible to break impact sockets.

 

Use any impact socket a lot, it will be noticeably worn a lot faster than a standard socket on the square end just from insertion onto the tool.

 

First link on the Google link I provided.

Cleve Pechuekonis, marketing manager at Ingersoll Rand:

Quote: " “Impact sockets are designed to handle the torque and flexibility without the product failing or shattering,” says Pechuekonis. Impact sockets are made from a softer, more malleable material called chromoly bdenum. This material is softer and more flexible to absorb the higher impact in situations where regular sockets would shatter like an ice cube. That’s not to say that an impact socket can’t split open. The important thing to remember is that they won’t shatter and send debris flying. Most impact sockets are gray in color or a black finish that looks like chrome. "

 

Fourth link, from Snap-on:

" Chrome hand sockets and impact sockets have differences that are a lot more than skin deep. Each is designed and manufactured with specific applications in mind, and they are built to handle that job only. The user must be careful not to use a chrome hand socket on an impact gun.

The impact socket has thick walls and is finished in a black phosphate or black oxide finish. The design is also distinct as impact sockets have a cross hole in the handle end for use with a retaining pin and ring or locking pin anvil to allow the socket to be securely attached to the square drive of an impact gun.

Power sockets, designed for use with power nut runners, multi-spindle machines and angle head nut drivers, may cause some confusion since they are offered in a black finish. But, they are stamped “WARNING: NON-IMPACT.” Power sockets are heat treated to a higher hardness than either impact or hand sockets. This high hardness, combined with thick socket walls, produces a strong, wear resistant socket. This socket is ideal for assembly-line work where it is not subjected to high-impact loads.

Hand sockets have a thin wall which allows for clearance in general applications where hand torquing is used. Hand sockets, except for those intended for industrial use, are chrome plated. Although hand sockets and power sockets can fit the impact wrench, they are not the same and must not be used on impact tools.

One difference you can’t see between these two different types of sockets has to do with the way each has been heat treated and/or the composition of the metal used. The impact socket made out of medium carbon alloy steel is heat treated to a low hardness range which has been optimized for impact use. This means that under heavy, continuous use, an impact socket will withstand the impact blows and will wear rather than break.

Hand sockets are made of medium carbon alloy steel heat treated to a hardness range commensurate with their size and configuration. Hand sockets are heat treated to a comparatively higher hardness for high strength and more wear resistance than impact sockets. But, they are made to sustain hand applied torque applications only. In other words, they are not designed for use on impact guns, and should never be used on them.

Using only impact sockets on impact wrenches reduces the risk of injury, delays and damaged work. It’s relatively easy to spot a hand socket that’s been misused on an impact wrench. Check the square drive end for signs of damage and distortion. Cracks and other damage will often appear around the wrench end as well. Breakage due to impact use is considered misuse and not through any fault of the hand socket itself.

If the right socket for the job isn’t available, the job can be delayed and tools can be damaged. Improperly using hand sockets on impact tools may be hazardous as they may crack. By knowing the difference between the various types of sockets and using them appropriately, you will be able to ensure a safer and more efficient work environment."

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On the two data sheets it plainly says the hardness scale rates impact sockets 3 times that of S2 steel. 

 

My experience most probably counts for nothing and I'm probably reading the data sheets wrong, eh. It's not like tool companies try to sell you tools or anything. 

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44 minutes ago, stductwork said:

On the two data sheets it plainly says the hardness scale rates impact sockets 3 times that of S2 steel. 

 

My experience most probably counts for nothing and I'm probably reading the data sheets wrong, eh. It's not like tool companies try to sell you tools or anything. 

 

Yeah, it must be some big conspiracy from EVERY TOOL COMPANY ON EARTH to prove you wrong with their tests and data.

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1 minute ago, BMack37 said:

 

Yeah, it must be some big conspiracy from EVERY TOOL COMPANY ON EARTH to prove you wrong with their tests and data.

 

Where do you have to be for 30 to be greater than 90? On the same point the anvil, spring and hammer in most impact wrenches aren't made from the same stuff impact sockets are yet they take the beating just fine. It would be the case that impact sockets can cost three/four times that of a cheap-o-nasty chrome socket. 

 

As for prove me wrong, I don't see how. I've shown a data sheet which suggests impact sockets are harder than S2/Chrome sockets. I use impact wrenches all day every day and use both chrome and impact rated sockets; both do a job and do it well with the DTW281. 

 

But back to the point I was originally trying to make before it got derailed, if you consider there to be a massive benefit to spending the/four times what you would on a normal bit or socket, spend it, it's your money. I personally haven't found that benefit after spending the money. 

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Just now, stductwork said:

 

Where do you have to be for 30 to be greater than 90? On the same point the anvil, spring and hammer in most impact wrenches aren't made from the same stuff impact sockets are yet they take the beating just fine. It would be the case that impact sockets can cost three/four times that of a cheap-o-nasty chrome socket. 

 

As for prove me wrong, I don't see how. I've shown a data sheet which suggests impact sockets are harder than S2/Chrome sockets. I use impact wrenches all day every day and use both chrome and impact rated sockets; both do a job and do it well with the DTW281. 

 

But back to the point I was originally trying to make before it got derailed, if you consider there to be a massive benefit to spending the/four times what you would on a normal bit or socket, spend it, it's your money. I personally haven't found that benefit after spending the money. 

 

I proved you wrong by citing credible sources, you cited wikipedia, which isn't even a credible source in grade school...but since you are caught up on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_wrench

 

"Non-impact sockets and accessories are made of a harder more brittle metal."

 

Did your wikipedia post mention any metallurgy (including heat and surface treatment) or just the base material specs?

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All propaganda:

 

https://www.milwaukeetool.com/shockwave/impact-driver-bits

OLA5QUA.jpg

 

https://www.makitatools.com/company/press-releases/2013/makita-launches-impact-gold-the-new-gold-standard-in-impact-driving

"High-Quality Steel, Xtreme Torsion Technology

Impact GOLD™ begins with high-quality steel engineered for use with impact drivers. To help withstand the increased impact energy of the most demanding applications, Impact GOLD™ features Xtreme Torsion Technology, which allows the torsion section of the bit to flex under load and take the pressure off of the bit tip. Xtreme Torsion Technology helps the insert bit withstand high-torque fastening applications, retain its shape and “fitment”, and last up to 10-times longer than standard bits – and up to 15-times longer when used with an Impact GOLD™ Torsion Insert Bit Holder."

impact-gold.jpg

 

Dewalf Flextorq(as if the named didn't clue you in):

tduLNBz.jpg

 

 

 

 

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You cited marketing wank mate. I don't know why you're so bothered. Spend your money where you want. I know what works for me and I'm happy with that. 

 

Did your wikipedia post mention any metallurgy (including heat and surface treatment) or just the base material specs?

 

Well, did you read it yourself?

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1 hour ago, stductwork said:

 

Where do you have to be for 30 to be greater than 90? On the same point the anvil, spring and hammer in most impact wrenches aren't made from the same stuff impact sockets are yet they take the beating just fine. It would be the case that impact sockets can cost three/four times that of a cheap-o-nasty chrome socket. 

 

As for prove me wrong, I don't see how. I've shown a data sheet which suggests impact sockets are harder than S2/Chrome sockets. I use impact wrenches all day every day and use both chrome and impact rated sockets; both do a job and do it well with the DTW281. 

 

But back to the point I was originally trying to make before it got derailed, if you consider there to be a massive benefit to spending the/four times what you would on a normal bit or socket, spend it, it's your money. I personally haven't found that benefit after spending the money. 

Those hardness values cannot be directly compared because they are on different Rockwell scales. The 90 was measured on the Rockwell B scale and the 30 on the Rockwell C scale with the C scale being harder scale, with some over lap in hardness on the high end of B scale and the low end of the C scale.

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