Jump to content

Recommended Posts

So the tiles in my sun room have been cracking and I knew that there was a leak into the garage below from where the genius that built my balcony didn't seal or flash the house to balcony joint, so I've started tearing out the floor to address the leaks, sister the floor joists and lay new tile.  Phase 1 (tile removal) is complete and I've gotten the joists exposed and it's ugly. 

 

I've taken a couple of pictures of the drama.

IMG_0778.thumb.JPG.91a2581801c1a5e6c4ae8822e36e370d.JPGIMG_0777.thumb.JPG.e85b35e09bc6b214aaef2502be47d67c.JPG

 

That 2x10 is actually doubled and backed by a triple 2x8 behind it (you can't see it in this picture).  So - decision time - I know I've got to address the flashing and somehow seal the water infiltration from the outside flashing, but that's a task for tomorrow (or maybe Saturday).  Right now the question is what to do about those two joists.  I was planning on sistering them with another 2x10, but both of these are so rotten, I'm wondering if I should cut it back to good wood and put a patch or something in the void.  I've read about structural epoxy, but I don't know if that's something I want to do. 

 

Should I rip out these two joists and replace them completely or cut to clean wood and patch / sister?  Any and all suggestions and observations are welcome, including "you are f#*$ed".

 

thanks

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

If joists are supported by wall structure below, then sectioning them with overlapping joints, at supporting studs should work. But if they are only supported at both ends, then full replacement would be in order. It is difficult to tell from your picture how they are actually supported. If you pull them completely, and support the structure with temporary supports, it might be easier to fix the flashing issue.

 

I have made repairs to existing problems in the past using truss plates and through bolting overlapping beams, but at the time there was no other alternative, and no planned inspections either (customers directive).

Link to post
Share on other sites

The joists are supported at the ends only however they are right next to a triple 2x8 that is supporting the edge of the balcony. So, in theory  I could sister the joists and bolt straight through the triple beam. It's sounding like replacement is the better option though. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

A quick update and another question.  Based on the amount of rot and wanting do it right, I've decided to removie and replacing the entire double 2x10.  I've cut out the center and braced the sunroom wall, but now I'm at a bit of an impasse.  What I can't figure out is how do I brace the rest of the wall to keep it from collapsing AND get a new joist in there at the same time?  Here are a couple of pictures of what it looks like now.

 

IMG_0795.thumb.JPG.a68a43b256fe3b984e2a905342120fa4.JPGIMG_0793.thumb.JPG.4c9ac25257da2f8238401c3315c027e2.JPG

 

As you can see, the wall of the sunroom is resting on the beam that was cut.  I've braced the middle and it's basically happy.   I can do the same for the left and right pieces but then I come to the dilemma.

 

Once I've removed all of the rotten 2x10s and braced the underside of the aluminum frame, how do I put the new 2x10 into place?  I have to come in from the side (can't drop in from the top or bottom obviously), but if the braces are in the way, how do I get the beam in?  If I remove the braces, what's to keep it from coming down while I slide the new 2x10 into place? 

 

I've looked everywhere for similar situations and I've actually had some experience replacing a rim joist, but there, you are working perpendicular to the floor joists and can support them while you work on the wall.  How do you do the same for this arrangement?

 

The one thing that I've thought of is to install the first 2x10 in pieces.  In other words, cut it into 2 or 3 pieces and slide it between the braces and the triple beam next to it.  Obviously this is less than ideal, but once in place, I can brace this cut joist and install one or two uncut 2x10's next to it.  Is this what I've got to do or can anyone suggest a better approach?

 

Thanks again.

 

khariV

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

You may need to run supports up to the top of the window wall, if the windows themselves will hang without problems. Otherwise approach it one joist at a time. Support the inside edge of the wall using a cantilever approach, fix your flashing, and then slide the outside joist into place, support it and add the inner joist after removing the cantilevers.

 

Just make sure the first joist is laying flat, nearly in place, prior to installing the cantilevers. The cantilevers will need to be undercut to allow clearance to rotate the outer joist into place.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So, by doing a cantilevered support, are you referring to something like this?

image.thumb.png.3aecbaa37ac68a8b3b3cedcfdf53b126.png

 

I would attach a bunch of the oddly cut blocks to the adjacent joist and then put a 2x4 under the wall to do the direct supporting.  Is that more or less correct?  This would be a real pain to put in as I would have to demo one of the support joists at a time and leave the other intact while I put up the supports and then come back to demo the other one and try really hard not to knock out the supporting 2x4 or the oddly cut blocks.  I'm not saying it isn't do-able, but that would be challenging.

 

I went with your other idea, supporting the wall from the top.  The wall probably isn't terribly heavy and ought to be fine.  Maybe.  What do you think?

 

IMG_0796.thumb.JPG.657adac272545914d929bc970e2094f1.JPG

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, and supporting the top of the wall section is most definitely the easiest option. A true cantilever, in your case, probably would have required a combination of steel plates bolted to the bottom of some 2x material and then screwing the 2x down to the top of the other joists.

 

Your last picture here has given me a better idea of your situation. You probably would have only needed two supports under the two vertical members in the wall. The rest of the wall doesn't look to be causing any real stress on the joists.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Demo is more or less done and nothing collapsed - woo hoo!

 

Now comes the fun part of making it not leak again in the future.  Here's a pic of the joint between the house and the balcony (before all of the plywood, flashing and interior joists were removed so you can see what was there). 

 

IMG_0803.thumb.JPG.9ae13b1fb6daab14e1a48466403c78f0.JPG

 

I'd love to tear up the tile and replace the subfloor and joists under the tile, but they're only damaged maybe 1" in and that's just not in the cards for now.

 

In any event, I've been reading on how to seal this joint and do it such that this whole leak doesn't start all over again.  The problem is the flashing between the metal frame keeps the water from dripping directly down into the joint, but it obviously doesn't stop it from flowing behind the flashing and coming in altogether.  Here's a drawing of the assembly of how things were set up.

 

image.thumb.png.ae82ae2f6f2e438f3aefa8ab5a2817c3.png

 

I've tried lots of things, from silicone caulk at the joint between the tile and the 2x10s to Great Stuff foam and neither really did the job.  So the question is, how do I stop the water.  If I just replace the flashing with intact flashing that's not beat to hell from the balcony construction and seal the 2x10 to tile joint with silicone, will that be sufficient?  Should I wrap the 2x10 with some sort of membrane?  The tile is angled away from the house, so I don't believe that the water is flowing backwards and pooling, so that ought not to be a problem.  Is there some other type of rubber gasket that I can sandwich between the tile and the 2x10 to form an initial seal that will be reinforced with the caulk?

 

What's the right way to do this?

 

thanks

khariV

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.waterproofingwaterdamage.com/tile-deck-waterproofing/deck-waterproofing-flashings.html  <-- a group of pictures showing flashing around a deck area.

 

One field of thought is that there should have been an extension of that flashing out under the tile about three to four inches and over the top of the waterproof membrane that should be under the tile on the deck. If you were remove the first row of tile and then apply a coat of redguard or some other sealant rated for exterior use, then set a proper flashing, before resetting some tile, you might have a chance of limiting the water intrusion.

 

The half-arse approach would be to add a section of flashing over the top of the existing tile while applying liberal amounts of sealant on it's underside. You are left with a sharp edge over the tile though, along with the exposed metal, that could be damaged by foot traffic over time. Sealants alone in the joint at the wall, will never seal properly for any length of time.

 

image.png.64146514b580eccbe65f15c6e740707c.png

 

An example of full treatment, and a different flashing style.

 

https://tiledoctor.com/how-to-tile/pools-and-decks/

 

One more example (shows sealant both under and over the flashing):

https://centralcoastwaterproofing.com/2010/07/06/mer-kote-tile-deck-waterproofing/

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Bracing update:  So when I removed the bottom brace, the center underneath the doors started to sag causing a bit of an "oh crap" moment.  The two glass doors weren't really supported terribly well by the thin aluminum threshold.  I removed the two doors and that took around 150 lbs of glass off the support and the sagging problem was solved.

 

Next up - the flashing.

 

First up, I can't knock out the first row of tiles to do it "right" (I've been told that when I've got the entire sun room rebuilt and re-tiled, I'm allowed to do that.  Until then, no dice.)  So anyway, I was going to replace the flashing with an S shape that went out 4-5" onto the tile.  I could slather it down with lots of silicone and when the time came to break the tiles, the horizontal piece would fit underneath the tiles, like the articles say should have been done in the first place.

 

The issue is what do I use for flashing.  I was going to use aluminum (brown / white from HD/ lowes), but when I went to bend it, it is quite brittle and breaks pretty easily.  Comparing it to the old flashing that I pulled up, it's probably half the thickness.  I'll have to get out the calipers to see if I can tell the gauge, but the stuff I can buy in HD/Lowes is just a lot thinner.

 

Are there any suggestions on what to use for the flashing?  I'm going to head to the Builders Supply tomorrow to see if they've got anything heavier, but I figured I'd ask to see if there's something obvious that I'm missing.

 

thanks

 

khariV

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Member Statistics

    14,747
    Total Members
    414
    Most Online
    stjan
    Newest Member
    stjan
    Joined
×
×
  • Create New...