Subcompact Recip and Rotary Hammer

[HiltiWpg]

The are using “*” beside the numbers now, so I guess that’s a little better.

“*Maximum initial battery voltage (measured without a workload) is 4, 20, 60 and 120 volts. Nominal voltage is 3.6, 18, 54 and 108. 120V MAX* is based on using 2 DEWALT 60V MAX* lithium-ion batteries combined.”



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[AnonymousJoe]

2 hours ago, ToolBane said:

I get the sense you’re falling for Dewalt’s questionable marketing labeling with the whole “20V/60V Max” thing.

 

The actual operating voltage of Dewalt’s “60V Max” batteries is 54V. Dewalt’s “20V Max” batteries are 18V nominal voltage exactly the same way all 18V platforms are. They’re claiming 20 volts because that’s the voltage an 18V battery reads when fully charged and NOT doing any work. ALL 18V Lithium batteries will measure 20V when first charged and not doing any work, regardless of who the manufacturer it is. They buy the same Lithium ion cells everyone else buys from Samsung, Sony, etc then wire them in the same 5-cell series to reach the 18V operating voltage.

 

Applied to Flexvolt, Dewalt’s “60V Max” batteries are really 3x18V=54V. They’re even labeled that way in other countries they’re sold in.

 

The 3Ah “60V Max” battery has the same power available as Milwaukee’s 9Ah 18V High Demand, and less than 2x5Ah 18V Makita batteries in X2. There’s no way around it.

I’m pretty sure he and everyone else on here knows that already, that’s pretty much common knowledge around here.  You are comparing batteries, framer joe is comparing tools

[AnonymousJoe]

I don’t mean that to come off as snappy, I was just making a statement. People share personal experiences with tools they use everyday on here and imo that means more than what any spec says about tools and/or batteries

[glass]

Makita 18vx2 or 36 volt doesn’t cut it compared to Dewalt 60 volt. That’s a laugh. Makita is equal and/or better. I own many of both. Sawzall, Makita better. Blower, Makita better, chain saw, equal . Rear handle circular saw, equal (Dewalt has more power, Makita more run time, note both have more than enough power, Makita is easier to use). Miter saws, equal just different strokes for different folks. 

Each system has its points. Makita uses one battery and focuses on compatibility and fast charging batteries, more power by doubling batteries and run time. 

Dewalt is focusing on max power and adding runtime to 20 v tools. 

But really both companies are making good tools.

Makita has some better tools, better cordless jig saw, router, sander, plate joiner, etc

the Makita sub compact may win no spec sheet c9ntests but they feel good in hand. 

I feel so far some flexvolt are surprisingly good, that massive right angle drill and grinder and some are a missed opportunity like the table saw, it just does not have enough run time along with the compressor. Both should be 60vx2. Dewalts new 20vx2 lawn mower could be foreshadowing as Dewalt sees the light that 36 v x 2 is enough power but better run time. Dewalt is truly better in only one way marketing and brainwashing. 

 

[HiltiWpg]

To be fair to Dewalt guys, they haven’t drank the Kool Aid as bad as Milwaukee guys!


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[glass]

..... and the Makita track saw spanks flexvolt, but I do like my dcs577 1800. Very handy

[ToolBane]

12 hours ago, D W said:

 

All over the internet people give Dewalt a hard time for their 20V Max but ignore 12V labeling.

 

What about Milwaukee and their M12? It's just as bad but never gets a mention, anywhere. People only seem to complain about Dewalt.

 

At least Dewalt and Makita state it's "Max". It should be M12 Max or M10.8 

This is why I chose the word “questionable” as opposed to “shady” or “dishonest”. I had a better word, but forgot it while typing.

[glass]

Not dcs577.  But dcb 1800 battery generator. 

[ToolBane]

17 hours ago, Framer joe said:

I understand the math involved, but 60v at 3ah and 18v at 9ah is not the same output....I guarantee that you will get more work done in Real Life with the 60v flex tools at 3ah then any 18v tool with any battery size....🙃

 

11 hours ago, AnonymousJoe said:

I’m pretty sure he and everyone else on here knows that already, that’s pretty much common knowledge around here. You are comparing batteries, framer joe is comparing tools

It looks like he’s comparing batteries to me, and his is not a statement citing direct use of the tools here. It’s a hand-waving statement guaranteeing superiority of all Flexvolt tools on account of an assumed superiority in their batteries. There are advantages to using a higher voltage arrangement, but they don’t guarantee higher performance on the scale we’re talking about.

 

People can be fans and have a hard time not being enthusiastic about what they like, but the way his post reads doesn’t lend the impression he understands the 18V vs 20V is nothing more than marketing/labeling. That isn’t uncommon at all, and when fans latch on to such misunderstandings to justify their fandom it’s...awkward.

[Biggie]

I think he's just saying that even though mathematically 60v at 3ah or 18v at 9ah are the same 162wh he thinks he gets more work done with the 60v/54v.  Which could be a big debate in itself and has been on many forums.  But like was said before I don't think he's trying to argue that 60v is better than 54v or 20v is better than 18v.  Most people that care enough about tools to be on a tool forum have the 20v max and 18v nominal thing figured out.

[glass]

Who cares if it’s the tool or the battery.  The fact is Dewalt is not better in every category. That’s all I am saying. It seems to me that there is a fellow who posts here that no matter the tool Dewalt is better than Makita. I find that laughable. It’s pretty much been found out by personal experience and by plenty of on line comparisons that flexvolt has tons of power but lacking in run time. That being said I like the dewalt I have, dhs 790, dcb 1800, right angle drill, grinder, dcs577, etc...  . 

[ToolBane]

1 hour ago, glass said:

Who cares if it’s the tool or the battery.  The fact is Dewalt is not better in every category. That’s all I am saying. It seems to me that there is a fellow who posts here that no matter the tool Dewalt is better than Makita. I find that laughable. It’s pretty much been found out by personal experience and by plenty of on line comparisons that flexvolt has tons of power but lacking in run time. That being said I like the dewalt I have, dhs 790, dcb 1800, right angle drill, grinder, dcs577, etc...  . 

Not to mention this is a Makita thread to begin with.

[kornomaniac]

21 hours ago, ToolBane said:

I get the sense you’re falling for Dewalt’s questionable marketing labeling with the whole “20V/60V Max” thing.

 

The actual operating voltage of Dewalt’s “60V Max” batteries is 54V. Dewalt’s “20V Max” batteries are 18V nominal voltage exactly the same way all 18V platforms are. They’re claiming 20 volts because that’s the voltage an 18V battery reads when fully charged and NOT doing any work. ALL 18V Lithium batteries will measure 20V when first charged and not doing any work, regardless of who the manufacturer it is. They buy the same Lithium ion cells everyone else buys from Samsung, Sony, etc then wire them in the same 5-cell series to reach the 18V operating voltage.

 

Applied to Flexvolt, Dewalt’s “60V Max” batteries are really 3x18V=54V. They’re even labeled that way in other countries they’re sold in.

 

The 3Ah “60V Max” battery has the same power available as Milwaukee’s 9Ah 18V High Demand, and less than 2x5Ah 18V Makita batteries in X2. There’s no way around it.

Well for the sake of correctness: there is an efficiency plus from having the power available in higher voltages (  54 vs 36 vs 18). And the DeWalt 3.0 amp flexvolt uses 20700 cells which deliver their power more efficiently then 18650 cells ( only under heavy loads ).

 

On the other hand an X2 setup by Makita has a 33% higher capacity of available energy. And a X2 setup puts less strain on the cells ( 20 cells vs 15 in flexvolt ).

 

Noone here is an engineer but it seems to even out

 

 

[ToolBane]

Well, coincidentally I actually have a non-trivial amount of engineering background among other things, though it doesn’t happen to be my current line of work.

 

When it comes to cells, a larger cell can more easily be made to have a lower internal resistance than a smaller cell (which is where the heat comes from when cells are subjected to high current exchange), but it’s far from guaranteed, because the quality of lithium cells are all over the map. Lithium cells can have a wide range of internal resistances. So it’s not quite as simple as saying larger cells automatically will be more efficient...but it is a general trend you might expect. One would have to look at the quality of cells, which will depend on the manufacturer they are sourced from among other things. I’m not privy to all that myself for power tools specfically, and some other people here will likely have more of that stuff off the top of their heads than me as far as power tools are concerned, I just know it will be a factor here the same way it is for lithium cells being used for anything else.

 

There is certainly the potential to gain higher efficiency via higher voltages, as probably a good percentage of people have gotten to experience first-hand, but it is not guaranteed. More precisely, you can get the same efficiency using less copper in your wiring, motor windings, etc. That doesn’t create an insurmountable hurdle for competitors using lower voltages, not within the power draw we have on power tools, for the most part they may have to weigh more material cost against lower efficiency. In most applications you can match performance if you are sufficiently willing to bear the material cost. This is what Milwaukee is almost certainly banking on to keep competitive against X2, Flexvolt, etc while committing to straight 18V for now. They probably can’t sit on that forever, but that’s another topic.

 

Forgive me if for some of you these are all concepts you are already perfectly familiar with. I don’t assume this is all familiar for everyone however.

[kornomaniac]

Well there's a YouTube video of a guy putting a steady amp draw on the cells of different batteries. Tries different amp draws.

 

And the conclusion of that video was indeed that the 20700 cells in the metabo LIHD and flexvolt 3 amp battery are indeed more efficient under heavy loads. They build up less internal resistance then the 18650 cells uses by Makita/Bosch.

 

That's what I was basing my post on.  So larger cells don't have to be more efficient but they are in the case of flexvolt

[glass]

And yet Makita 18v x2 consistently outperforms flexvolt. It’s not a battery that cuts the wood. So that’s why I stay invested in Makita, the tools are better. Yet there are some Dewalt tools I like. 

[danielicrazy]

sooo....  when are we getting a cordless 18g and framing nailer?

[kornomaniac]

2 hours ago, danielicrazy said:

sooo....  when are we getting a cordless 18g and framing nailer?

18g nailer exists. It's just a POS for most people