TESTING MILWAUKEE'S M12 RED LITHIUM ION BATTERY

[kanxrus]

Well we were able to get our hands on Milwaukee's new M12 Red-lithium. Surprisingly the batteries extra magical power does not come from harnessing the essence of Unicorns!

The top secret RedLithium is made by.... Samsung. INR18650-15R cells to be exact. A few other tool manufactures use Samsung INR18650-13Q cells. Difference between the two are not 100% clear at this point in time (no specs available) The graph below show's some spec's for a -15R, and -15Q, (18amp vs 25 amp) specs will most likely be the same as the -15M. Were not sure what the letter M is for. Only thing we know for sure, the battery has gone from 1300mAH to 1500mAH roughly a 15% increase.

Here are Samusung's specs:

So we will be testing Milaukee's new M12 REDLITHIUM against it's current battery, oh and of course DEWALT's 12v Max.

REDLITHIUM Advantage:

Performance Up to;

· 40% More Run-Time

· 20% More Speed

· 20% More Torque

· Fade Free Power

Durability;

· Operates Down to 0°F/-18°C

· Runs 20% Cooler

· Up to 50% More Recharges

· No Memory Effect

Ok so we wanted to see if RedLithium lived up it's claims!

* 40% more runtime & 20% More speed/torque?

We decided to test Milwaukee M12 regular lithium against M12 RedLithium. This is much like our other tests. We let the batteries charge 24hrs, used a new Dewalt 1/2" Spade bit. We used the same 2x12 Douglas Fir lumber.

After testing Dewalt 12v Max against Milwaukee M12 we discovered that Milwaukee cannot handle being pushed hard. The electronics are too temperamental. You'll notice we go much slower, and do a short pause before drilling the next hole. Or at least we tried! We were able to get a more realistic test on runtime.

After the testing we discovered a 30% increase in runtime, and slightly higher speed. We also tested some different torque applications off camera. We did see a slight increase in torque.

* Runs 20% Cooler?

At the end of the video we test the temperature after the batteries sat for about 3 minutes. This allows the shell to absorb more heat from the cells for a closer internal thermal measurement. Not exact science here, but close enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KQPUjEe8ao

* Operates Down to 0°F/-18°C?

We put both batteries in a freezer for approx. 6-7hrs. We tested the outside temperature, then began drilling. Both drills were sluggish, but after several holes the battery warmed up and started to preform a little better. Did they both work at 0 degrees? Sure, but the Milaukee's REDLITHIUM preformed worse than the standard Sanyo batteries in Dewalt's 12v max battery. Nothing significant here worth touting about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52qmiwIuCqA

Last but not least we tested Milwaukee's REDLITHIUM against Dewalt's 12v Max lithium. Unlike the Milwaukee vs Milwaukee test, we pushed these guy's hard and fast. Again, Milwaukee's lousy electronics got in the way! Electronics shut the tool down and would not allow us to continue until things had cooled down. If you compare our previous MvM test, the Milwaukee did drill 74 holes, while Dewalt drilled 70.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lJq3suTsBQ

Final thoughts;

Does Milwaukee's REDLITHIUM live up to it's claims? I would have to say YES. In more normal day to day work I would have to say the 40% increase in runtime is not too far off. It did pump the tool with a higher voltage, and more amps. Which in turn allows for a increase in torque and speed. Did the tool preform under freezing cold tempratures. I'll leave that one up to you to decide. I have no way of testing a 50% increase in cycle life, only time will tell.

It's sad that all this hype add's up to a tool that can almost compete with Dewalt's 12v Max! What do you guy's think?

[Krane]

I think a 40% increase is very good for Milwaukee. I feel the 12V Dewalt is just too bulky. In comparison to the other companies in the 10.8v-12v, the Dewalt is much larger. The idea of the sub-compact tools, for me, is to be as small as possible. The Dewalt does have nice power and seems to be capable.

[kanxrus]

Are you talking about Dewalt's 12v NiCd or the 12v Max Lithium tools? If your talking about the 12v Max tools, it's pretty obvious you've never put one in your hand! 12v Max is light years ahead of any 10.8v/12v lithium in terms of ergonomics and balance!

[golden valley const.]

Thank you for being the first to do such a test.  I've been intrigued by these redlithium batteries.  Next summer I may be able to contribute a comparison between M12 and 12V Max in a more controlled environment:  Metal roofing screws.  Drilling technique can't really be varied, so it's a really fair test.  Always the same thing, #14 screws through 29 gauge metal into OSB, all fairly consistent density, and always just drilled until it fully sets.  No stalling, over-working, etc.  like can happen with spade bits in varied wood.  For the roofing, 12V tools are barely sufficient, but the light weight is awesome and the added power of the 12V max might be just the ticket.

[andron]

New member here with an observation:

the milwaukee shutting off during high load is not a bad thing since it will lead to the cells having a longer life.

If you continuously drain a battery at or near its`maximum rate you will reduce its`life, plain and simple.  I am not saying that the dewalt batteries are going to die quickly: Dewalt may have higher quality cells in its`batteries or more efficient circuitry in the drill that allows for a higher discharge rate.

BTW great information and great forum you guys have here. I use milwaukee M12 and Makita but find myself coming here very often for good information.

[kanxrus]

I understand exactly what's going on with the drill. I'm just trying to illustrate what WOULD happen if you pushed these drills a little harder than normal ideal conditions. When you push a tool to it's limit's you can generally find who designed a tool to handle abuse.

Thanks for your observation. What do you think of your M12 line thus far?

[andron]

I love the M12 Radio and impact driver but wish the hackzall had a bit more power (red lithium XC?)

would i buy again? now that the 12V MAX line has come out  it is not so clear. the dewalt has that lovely LED light, 3 led`s on the impact, feels great in the hand, has more power... there is a lot of positives for the dewalt but it boils down to the selection of tools for the milwaukee battery system. so i would buy into the milwaukee system again.

[andron]

I know you are closing down the site but here's an update.

i bought the m12 hammer drill kit to try out and did not like it at all. it was well engineered, power was OK, had the same light stay on for 10 sec like the makita etc. but it was just too bloody expensive for what you get and it was not that much smaller than my makita drill. for $10 more than the m12 hammer drill i was able to buy a makita hammer drill, skil saw and recip saw sans batteries. so sorry to milwaukee but i returned it and bought the other tools instead.

one sentence review: great but too expensive.

[TerryWills-KMS]

I'm going to be honest, I really like the 12V Max DeWalt tools, but I fell in love with Bosch's newly redesigned drill (PS31-2A) and impact (PS41-2A).  They are both so small, and so powerful.  The 3/8 drill is by far the smallest 12V Lithium Ion drill out there that I've seen.

DeWalt hit a home run with ergonomics.  I think Bosch for my hand was a 2nd but I chose Bosch because of it's size and build quality.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

[cyclone700]

Hopefully you have better luck with your Bosch drill than I did.  I used on one project and the chuck started to wobble and I couldn't keep drill bit tight either.  Exchanged it and had the same problem with the new.  It also seemed kinda loud as well.  If you need the compact size and power of the Bosch, it's a great drill.  I returned the Bosch and bought the Dewalt 12V max drill and impact combo.

[kanxrus]

....They are both so small, and so powerful.....

Anyway, my 2 cents.

Dewalt's 12v max impact still has more torque than the PS41. The PS41 has 930in lbs, Dewalt has 950. As far as length goes, Dewalt is still using a canned motor in the 12v max making the head longer than Dewalt's 18v DC825/6/7. If Dewalt does a 2nd gen like Bosch has, and uses a frameless motor like it's big 18v brother, then the length will shrink dramatically, as well as a boost in power.

[Tool Guru]

I love tools and am always interested in new technology.  I heard about Red Lithium and was excited, specifically about the temperature claims.

They put on an event recently which I attended.  They had two demo stations set up. 

One was a freezer with a sawzall in it and a couple 18V batteries.  A Digital thermometer was giving the reading of the freezer.  The freezer was reading -22 Celsius.  They took the sawzall out of the freezer, put on a battery and passed it around.  The tool and battery were absolutely rock solid freezing cold.  Then they cut through a 2X8 with no difficulty.  Needless to say everyone was pretty impressed.

The other demo was a drill driving an spade bit into some thick OSB.  They showed the power difference between regular lithium and Red Lithium and everyone was impressed.  Then they put the Red Lithium XC battery on the drill and it performed even better.

I think that if you want to see a good test of what a line of tools is capable of doing, you should really be showing a video of what Milwaukee with an XC battery vs DeWalt with their battery.  Until DeWalt offers one, it's clearly a competitive advantage.

Another reason why everyone is the room was impressed was because they had displayed their entire 12V tool line.  Most of the group were plumbers by trade, but there were electricians, HVAC/R techs and general construction guys in the room too.  Seeing the full offering was really impressive to us and a huge reason why I don't think that, at least at this time, I could ever see myself switching brands.

[kanxrus]

Milwaukee's Red-Lithium is simply a Samsung battery that any manufacture has access to use. It's not exclusive technology to TTI. They use the same battery in their Ridgid line and they call it Hyper-Lithium. Simply put, it's a battery with a clever marketing spin.

Pretty much TTI is saying, hey gang sorry about the original batteries we dished out..... here is a battery we should have used first go around.

[Tool Guru]

If TTi puts the same good technology into the Ridgid Hyper-Lithium battery so what?  This a good thing that they're adding fuel to the competitive fire. 

I'm looking to see how other companies respond with new innovation too instead of just slagging what's an obvious improvement.

[kanxrus]

I'm trying to make a marketing point.

Your absolutely right! It is a obvious improvement!

[Tool Guru]

@DewaltDude,

And with all due respect sir, your logic is saying this, any technological improvement in history could be chalked up to the statement, "We should have put this in there to begin with."

Also, please don't get me wrong.  I actually like DeWalt and own their tools.  Just want to discuss this particular technological improvement.

[kanxrus]

I'm saying, TTI had better options that were currently on the market when they launched M-18. They chose the worst battery on the planet aka E-moli. When that went horribly wrong, they stepped up into a lower grade Samsung battery. Now they finally decided to use a higher grade Samsung cell, a cell that's not all that far off than what's been on the market for a while now. They had options available on the market to do good by their loyal end-users, and they chose the latter. M-18 was a, sorry about V-18. I see RED LITHIUM as the same thing.

Now that they finally joined the race, they come steam rolling in on a band-wagon as if they themselves created this all mysterious RED-Lithium! I just find it a total load of marketing crap, feeding on the weak minded.

The best lithium-ion technology available, RED LITHIUM!

         RED LITHIUMâ„¢ batteries deliver best in class performance in extreme job-site conditions

         Best-in-Class Run Time

 Best-in-Class Recharges

 Best-in-Class Extreme Weather Performance

Hyper™ Lithium – Built for High Performance

Best-in-Class Run Time

Best-in-Class Recharges

Best-in-Class Extreme Weather Performance

I completely agree that competition, and innovation drive this industry, and I am alway's excited to see that latest and greatest. I don't like deceptive marketing that try's to make something appear greater than it is.

[Tool Guru]

Joined the race?  I don't understand.  My co-worker has been using a Milwaukee Lithium tool for over 5 years...

[Tool Guru]

And from what I've noticed every company out there is terrible with their marketing.  A year or so ago I was shopping for some 12V tools.

I saw stickers that were literally put the Bosch 10.8V tools to say that they were 12V.

I saw the same thing for DeWalt Nano-Phosphate.  A sticker over the battery with XRP-Lithium.  Where did that ever go? 

Just seems to me like no one is exempt from their marketing teams getting carried away.

All I was saying from my original post is that everyone that went to that event was quite impressed with what we not only watched but I demo'd myself. 

Maybe DeWalt will expand their 12V line and we'll be comparing apples to apples.  Until now all I ever see online is a drill against a drill.  Milwaukee's got over 30 tools in 12V.  How do you compete with that?!?

[Gatorb8881393434512]

Joined the race?  I don't understand.  My co-worker has been using a Milwaukee Lithium tool for over 5 years...

If you read some threads on this forum about 12v max vs. Milwaukee M12, you would see that when Dewalt came out with their 12v max line, it crushed Milwaukee's (It did, I own a set of both and have run tests). Milwaukee knew this, and decided to come out with a new battery line ("Red" lithium) which basically makes M12 be able to compete with Dewalts 12v Max. Milwaukee is touting this "red lithium" technology as something new and innovative to the industry when it's not new technology, it's just a better cell than the one they originally came out with, one more compareable to what Dewalt is already using in it's 12v Max line.

As DewaltDude put it:

It's sad that all this hype add's up to a tool that can almost compete with Dewalt's 12v Max!

[kanxrus]

Joined the race?  I don't understand.  My co-worker has been using a Milwaukee Lithium tool for over 5 years...

I'm not going to spell it out for you....

[Madtec]

And from what I've noticed every company out there is terrible with their marketing.  A year or so ago I was shopping for some 12V tools.

I saw stickers that were literally put the Bosch 10.8V tools to say that they were 12V.

Yes this is true, when Bosch first came out with the sub-compact line (10.8v) it was a hit, but the North American market wanted more, so they slap on a sticker and call it 12v.......here you go

I saw the same thing for DeWalt Nano-Phosphate.  A sticker over the battery with XRP-Lithium.  Where did that ever go? 

Actually, Dewalt upgraded the circuitry in the lithium packs and add some new cells, so it was changed to XRP lithium to correspond with the performance.

Just seems to me like no one is exempt from their marketing teams getting carried away.

That's  marketing for ya..........say did you see the new mustangs have over 300hp in there V6 model?  Well guess what, that hp rating is at the crank

All I was saying from my original post is that everyone that went to that event was quite impressed with what we not only watched but I demo'd myself. 

You were impressed because they stuck a battery and tool in the freezer, placed a thermometer to show you how cold it is and then proceeded to drill some holes?  Well try placing placing that tool and battery in the freezer over night then perform the same test, let's see if you are still impressed with the performance and run-time.

Maybe DeWalt will expand their 12V line and we'll be comparing apples to apples.  Until now all I ever see online is a drill against a drill.  Milwaukee's got over 30 tools in 12V.  How do you compete with that?!?

Well they dominate the 18v line with over 40 tools and one, well two batteries (NiCd and Lithium) and the 12v line is still new, so what do you think will happen next?  At least they are not competing against themselves......now how about them apples

[ncfh]

New girl checking in...

Just wanted to add my recent experiences with red lithium and Milwaukee.

I have several of the M18 tools, the big hammer drill, grinder, large & compact impacts, etc, etc. All pre- red lithium.

I just bought two new red lithium M18 XC batteries to add to my collection a few days ago, and well, they don't work right.

When I put them in my drill and pull the trigger I get a weak "pluh," the chuck turns a couple times and then it stops. But every third or fourth trigger pull, WHAM! Business as usual. I would suspect the drill, but the older XC lithium batteries work fine, not a single hiccup, ever.

So, out for warranty replacement they go.  aww... :'(

When they DO work, I can really feel an improvement in power. No idea on battery life as they are just too frustrating to use for very long. So scientific, I know...

Anyway, I went with Milwaukee this time around because I kept blowing the Makitas apart and got tired of the rubber over-molding falling off. Got soured on DeWalt a couple years ago with the pistol style drills, had them rebuilt and rebuilt and rebuilt, and just had enough. The fact that they don't stand up on their own eventually got to me a little too.

For a brief moment I was really tempted by the Hlti drill, but the breadth of the Milwaukee line, their legendary customer service and "no questions" 5 year warranty sealed the deal for me. I am a welder/fabricator by trade and I don't think I could live without my cordless grinder and impacts now. lol. The drill itself has been excellent aswell, I have a nice S&D drill set, and am able to drill large holes in steel just fine, day in, day out. The thing has so much torque, it feels almost like the old corded magnum drills, the "wrist breakers" as they are known. I actually broke the side handle off the new drill when a bit bound up in a piece of plate. Rather than use a radial clamp like most side handles, this new drill has two metal "ears" cast into the drill body that the handle clamps over, and well, I snapped the one ear clean off. Crap.

Other than that I really can't fault the Milwaukee M18 line, great all around performers, and a warranty I can count on when I need it. Thou they are REALLY heavy, lots of metal. Don't get me wrong, that's just what I want and need for working with metal, but now I am looking at compact drill/driver kits to keep in my general purpose tool bag for light duty (ha) stuff. I am really liking the little Bosch 12v set for $125 on Amazon, it's very compact and well reviewed. But now I get this email from Festool today about their new CXS drill/driver... But at $500+ it better be f'ing amazing. Serious tool bling.

I'll probably end up ordering the Bosch kit this week, it's just too good to pass up, and just what I want in a compact driver/impact set. Don't know why I'm not looking harder at the M12 line, I should. But between all the Milwaukee stuff, the Hilti stuff, and the Facom stuff, I've got WAY too much "red" already. Might as well spice things up wit zee little Germans. 

[Todd308]

First kudos for the testing, it's nice to see someone really push these tools, and be willing to take them apart and compare internals.  Most of the time reviews don't really do enough abusive testing to give real info.

That said I think it's pretty harsh to come down on Milwaukee for the red lithium batteries.  How many years did Dewalt use substandard capacity sub C nicad cells in XR packs, till what 2006-2007? probably a decade after better cells were available.  The fact dewalt still charges $80-90 for a nicad XRP pack is ridiculous.    I will give dewalt credit for interchangeability though, I really believe that's what earned them their huge following, customers knowing they will be supported down the road.  Also good for them in sticking with Nicad for so long, they may not have the capacity but they take more charging/temperature abuse than Nimh or Lion did especially early on.  Other companies have dropped the ball on this.

There are higher capacity 18650 cells than any cordless tool is using even today, probably due to cost, but there are almost always better options in battery cells by the time any power tool hits the market.  If you really want to see something consumer friendly lets see user replaceable individual cell packs.  That way when a cell dies users are not stuck paying $50-150 for a battery pack.  It would be easy, 123, 18650, subC cells are all commonly available in the button top versions just like AA's are.    I've heard the excuses that cordless tool companies don't want users replacing battery cells, putting them in wrong, using the wrong cells etc.  It's a cope out, plain and simple. When was the last time you saw anyone that made device or charger using AA's saying "We can't do that, people will kill themselves!" Makers of AA chargers are still making them even though people could put non-rechargeable batteries in them.  They didn't stop making remote controls that use AAA/AA's because people might put cells in them backwards.  It's simply because that's where these power tool companies make their big profits. 

As to the M12 vs 12v Max.....having used both quite a bit the 12v max does have a power/run time advantage, but it's slight in most cases with the new red batteries.  Dewalt should have an advantage they are 2 years late to the market.  I like the feel of the dewalt handle but I don't notice any more fatigue, or discomfort with the M12 system.  M12 batteries are cheaper. I like that the dewalt tools stand up on the battery (though it tends to encourage me to put them places they fall off of!), but in some M12 tools a flat battery would be annoying such as the palm nailer or rotary tool, and Milwaukee now offers their red lithium XC battery that should easily crush the 12v max in run times in a similar size package since it appears the normal red lithium is close in run time.  I don't see that as a big deal because for their intended uses/market the standard batteries are more than enough.

As to the milwaukee shutting off under extreme use, yes, for a very good reason, the dewalt might be able to be pushed harder without shutting down, but for how long, how much potential long term damage is that doing to the tool?  You can drive a car longer with no oil in the engine without a computer controlled oil pressure shut off too, but that doens't mean it's better when you have to replace the motor, only that it allowed you to do more damage to it.

What draws people to the M12 line is simply the number of tools and they offer and to me they seem a bit more compact than the dewalts (though not with the XC battery).  The M12 dremel like tool pulled me into the line (it crushes the worthless dewalt brand cordless rotary tools)  Having 30 plus tools to choose from allows a home owner to easily buy one tool with a couple battery packs and buy several other bare tools and not spend a ton of money.  I see neither of these systems for heavy all day multiple tool use, the 12v Max is so close in size to the M18 or 20v Max with the slim batteries that for hard use most people are going to go that way to start with.  Hopefully dewalt starts releasing some more tools as their current selection just doesn't encourage people to buy them.  For not much more money you can jump to an 18v/20v system with slim batteries and be really close in size/weight with a lot more tool for not much more money.

This is my other complaint with the dewalt 12v Max.  No bare tools (at least that I can find aside the light) so you have to spend significantly more money and find a place to store several chargers that most people don't need.  The typical home owner is also going to end up with way too many batteries wasting away unused. You can buy 2-3 reconditioned bare M12 tools for the price of one 12v Max tool.  Also I've yet to see any dewalt 12v max reconditioned tools, perhaps since it's their first year they are trying to encourage new tool only sales, but you find M12 reconditioned tools available that haven't been on the market a year yet.

The 5 year warranty is a plus in my book too, for the casual user.  Most of us here probably use our tools enough that we know very quickly if a tool has a defect, but a home owner might not use some of their tools more than a couple times a year, and maybe on a demanding project only ever couple years, so having the extra warranty time might be huge for them.  I know lots of home owners with cordless tools that have never used them enough in a single project to completely drain a single battery, so for them longer is better.  The only thing that drains their batteries dead is lack of use.

Both are good tool lines, but the 12v max system to me isn't small/compact enough to sell itself on that merit alone, especially now that the 20v max is out, and so far the lack of tools in the line doesn't encourage purchases there either.    I think the 12v max is a bit more refined than the M12, and it should be for as long as it took them to get to market, but with such a small tool selection I don't see them taking much market share, however that hopefully will change down the road.

[dustlane]

Hi, all. New member here but thought I would give my experience. I am not a contractor but a homeowner. I do use my tools regularly for "stuff". Fixing this and adding that. Running wire here or building shelves there. Anyway, I recently bought the 12v Max drill/impact combo. I really like it but I kept reading so many positive things about the Milwaukee M12 that I bought the hammerdrill/impact combo to test alongside the Dewalt. I just got back from Home Depot where I returned the Milwaukee. I took the M12 out of the box and charged the batteries. Then I put a 3/4" paddle bit in each tool and proceeded to drill a few holes as if I were going to run wire through studs. I am about to build a storage shed so I thought that would be a good test. Anyway, after about four or five holes, the Milwaukee started smoking and just shut off. The battery gauge lights just flashed when I pulled the trigger. After it cooled down, it ran fine for a while. The Dewalt drilled seven holes without a hiccup so I stopped the test. Then I started running 2.5" deck screws through a 2x4 which I will be doing when I build the storage building as well as the privacy fence I am building soon. The Milwaukee was sluggish while the Dewalt drove the screws home without a hitch. I realize that this is not a scientific test by any means but, for what I plan on using the drill for, it's pretty convincing. Granted, Milwaukee offers alot of tools in the M12 line, but if they all perform this way, what difference does it make? Now I have to decide if I want to keep the Dewalt 12v Max or return it and buy the Makita LCT200W kit that comes with a drill, impact driver, two batteries and charger. It is only $29 more than the 12v Max and at 18 volts, it is alot more powerful. However, the internet has alot of negatives when it comes to the batteries (1.5 amp LXT) that come in that set.