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HELP!! How much torque??


bushwickbill

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I finally pulled the trigger and bought the new Dewalt 20 Volt Max Premium Hammer drill combo kit.  So I have the hammer drill and the Impact driver.  I have been doing alot of research about cordless drills these last few weeks as my New ridgid 18 Volt X4 Hyper Lith hammer drill is in the shop getting a new chuck.  I Did buy the new 18 volt HC Lith-ion bosch drill/driver which says it has 700 Inch pounds of torque, The DDH181-01.  I was happy with it until I went back to the store and went head to head with Dewalts new 20 Volt hammer drill.

I put in a 7/8 inch ship auger and drilled many holes in a four by four chuck of fur that was damp.  So, Hole after Hole things were tied up when both tools were in first gear.  The dewalt was a little faster as its RPM are almost 200 RPM faster than bosch.  But...Then I threw the Dewalt into second gear for a try, And BAM!!  Like butter, It went threw the 4x4 like nothing?  I was confused to say the least.  So was the Bosch rep who just happened to be there for this little hole drilling contest (was planned by Slegg lumber store rep).  Everybody didn't really have a answer for how is it that dewalts new drill has more torque and SPEED to plow through this 4X4 than the mighty bosch??  I was also able to talk to the Dewalt Rep Via phone call that one of the other Staff called.  I asked him flat out, "How much Torque does this new DCD985 Hammer drill have?"  I got a very lame answer.  He told me that they were now unable to give out that info.  Had something to due with law suits or some crap.  I also asked him how much "Unit watts Out" Did it have, I got a very wrong answer, He said 918.  I asked him are you sure, He stated "I think it has 918".  Well, It clearly says on numerous reviews that it has 535 Unit Watts Out. 

But that is just not good enough for me.  I want the real amount of torque that this shiny new Premium Hammer drill is sporting?

Now, I have had the new Dewalt drill for two days now.  I am a electrician in the middle of a 30 suite reno, So I have been putting this new drill through the same kind of stuff I had been putting the bosch drill (HDD181-01) Through.  And I am a little disappointed with the dewalt drill.  When the Batt is fully charged, The dewalt drill seems unstoppable?  Going through three-four 2X4 studs, 2 2x10 joists with no problem with a 7/8 inch ship auger, Even on speed 2!?  But after about 6-7 holes it seems to lose some pep.  Then it can't go through any studs on speed two, Never mind three-four stacked up??  So whats going on??

I need answers.  And I figure this is the place to post.

The person at Sleggs said I have 90 days to see if I want to stay with the dewalt.  Well, I will say this.  When ?I was using the bosch, With the 7/8 inch ship auger (its just a 18 inch 7/8 auger bit) I was not able to stall it!!  Sure I have to keep it in first gear and its only spinning at 380 RPM's, But it gets through anything?

Alot of you might ask, Well if your drilling so many holes, Why not use a corded drill.  Well in new construction I do.  I will use a core for all day drilling and pulling.  But in reno's, I might drill 2 holes here, Three over there Etc...  So I am trying not to drag out a cord.  So call me crazy, I am just looking for the cordless drill that has the most torque, Period.  If I have to not use a cord, Then great.  If I have to drill through four studs then I want to be able to blast out my cordless drill and get the job done.

I know this is a loing post, But I wanted to get my full point out.  So please any and all advice is wanted. 

Thanx, I hope I can get to the bottom of the mystery Dewalt torque number??? 

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Do not use a auger bore. If I understand you correct you are working with electric installations and how the hole look likes on the stud when the drill is coming out does not matter. It is not furniture you are building. Use a spadebits instead since that will stress less on the drill and with that size on the bore you can use 3 gear on that mighty Dewalt drill.

Good luck

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Hey Bushwickbill, Looks like Bingobelle didn't really answer your question. UWO was "invented" by DeWalt, NO rep (in Canada) was able to give me a formula to calculate UWO. all they say: " it's a very complex calculation that takes in consideration torque, speed and transmission" .

What the f$*#&!!!!

Drilling a 7/8 ship auger bit, just like a self-feed bit, demands alot of torque from a drill. Since Dewalt can't provide a real torque figure to compare it's really hard to answer you. But, keep in mind: High Speed = Low Torque , Low Speed = High Torque. Look for a low rpm cordless drill to do your job.

Right now, the Makita BDF451 at 300 rpm, is the slowest drill on the market. If you want to go with Makita is entirely up to you.

Part of my job, is to test power tools (from any company). and the 20v I've tested didn't slow down after 6-7 holes, it slowed down near the end of battery cycle. I did my test in a 2x8 spruce, with a 2" self-feed bit from Irwin. The Dewalt did 38 holes on avreage (5 times) and it started slowing down after the 35th hole...

Maybe, there's something wrong with your drill??

Hope this helps...

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That 451 have a plastic gear change ring and a lot of them broke first year. Then you have to take apart transmission to change that piece. I thought that bdf451 was discontinued due to a lot of mechanical isues.

Anyway, I know I did not answer the question but why are you so determined to have a tourch number? It just a number and say less than you might think in real world application. Better to feel how the machine is in your hand and feel how much workload it is able to take. That xr xrp drill is one of the strongest cordless drills in the world. If you need more torch, power you have to jump up to 36 volt system. A another brand will not help.

And those augerbits, can not se the point with them on a building site.

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thanx all for the replies.  Why do I need a torque number?  I know I should use the drill in the field to really see how it holds up.  Well I did that.  I Used the Bosch for a Bit, Drilled through different depths and old/new wood.  Those old 2x4's seem to be a lot harder to get through.  i mainly want aa torque number so I could compare it to online articles of other drills, And see how it is suppose to stack up.

The using the auger bits is the only solution to nails.  In this reno situation I sometimes, Most of the time I don't have alot of choices were I CAN drill, And almost all the time there is a nail or two, Or three  to go through to finish the hole.  And also, Most of the time I need the length of the 18 inches this particular greenlee nail eater extreme has to even be able to drill due to things in the way or just tight situations to try and get a hole into something.  I agree spade bits are so much faster and less stressful on the motor for sure.  But as soon as you hit one nail you have most likely ruined your nice sharp spade bit. 

When I am doing new construction I use spade bits alot.  Being able to see the whole piece of wood your drilling so spotting nails is easy and you can almost all the time just move your wanted hole over a inch or two to avoid the nail.

So unless you have a nail eater extreme spade bit, Ill have to stick with what works in this less than desirable drilling situation.

I was checking my plumber buddy's leader bits, He says they can handle a nail better than a spade bit, But till you have to either replace them or get them sharpened after about three good nails.  These Greenlee nail eater extreme have replaceable worms and cutters.  So you pay for the auger once, And you can buy a three pack of replacement worms and cutters for cheap.  And each cutter and worm  are good for over 15-20 good nails from my experience using them over the last three months.

And the low RPMS would be the bosch at 700 inch pounds of torque.  I wasn't able to stall that beat, Period.  It chugged along at its almos 380RPMs through whatever I aimed my 18 inches of pure wood drilling mayhem, LOL!

I will keep using this dewalt for a bit to make sure that I didn't make a premature judgments.  Dewalt is a solid company, And their drills are top notch.  I just want the most torque or power I can get for when the going gets tough.  Maybe the bosches low speed beast is what I will have to go back to.

I know milwaukkee has some nice drills.  One of them sports a nice 750 inch pounds, But the 28 Volt lith battery is HUGE!!  In march 2012 Milwaukee will be selling its newest line of cordless drills called, Milwaukee Fuel.  Apparently they are switching to a new Brush less drill.  It is going to be a smaller, Cooler running, Higher torque Motor.  They are saying it will beat anything currently out there when they hit the market.  Only thing is, They themselves have said the newer tech will be pricey at launch.  So prices wont come down till next summer:(  Wonder who is going to crack the 800 inch pounds of torque??

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I put in a 7/8 inch ship auger and drilled many holes in a four by four chuck of fur that was damp.  So, Hole after Hole things were tied up when both tools were in first gear.  The dewalt was a little faster as its RPM are almost 200 RPM faster than bosch.  But...Then I threw the Dewalt into second gear for a try, And BAM!!

Sure I have to keep it in first gear and its only spinning at 380 RPM's, But it gets through anything?

hmmm... so you are comparing 1st gear in your bosh to 2nd gear in dewalts... I think that is what I am reading.

So how does dewalt compare to your bosh both in first gear and second? IOW, you don't need to actually know the torque number just compare the two... IMO.

the dewalt ends up winning in my book regardless... i mean higher RPMs, is also a hammer drill, plus that 3rd gear... wow.

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So now I have had a few more days to play with this dewalts drill.  I have had to leave it in 1 st gear for almost all the holes I have had to drill.  And I am finding, That it does stall a lot easier than I had thought.  I was not able to stall out the bosch at all.  Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to stall these drills.  It happens on its own.  I have found thst this new dewalt hammer drill is faster at drilling no doubt about it.  But for my tasks that I want a cordless drill, It seems to not holding up as I had originally expected.  I would think in new construction with fresh dry wood to drill through it would probably do great.  But doing these reno jobs I am forced to drill through less than Ideal wood at very odd angles, And nails thrown in just for fun. 

And here is the very funny part.  i have gotten so used to using my Cordless drills for drilling that when I had to use my Corded Makita 1/2 inch drill I was very surprised to see that it is having trouble going through some of the material too?  Maybe yes I am asking too much out of a cordless drill.  But on the other hand I am just looking for the drill that has the most power hands down for the material that I have to go through.  So if its bosch or dewalt or milwaukee Who knows who is best.  I have had the chance to use both dewalts top of the line and bosches top of the line offerings.  And it seems that bosch is the more powerful tool.  I will keep using this dewalt drill for a bit longer untill I get a chance to go head to head drilling with milwaukees best drill which has 650 inch pounds of torque.  But again it will be in a store under ideal conditions unlike the job site.

If anybody else has a way to figure out how much torque this drill has (dewalts Premium hammer drill) please feel free to share.

Thanx for all the replies people.

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So I have to ask, what are you drilling (hole size)?  I have run these two drills (as well as the other major competition) against the DeWalt, and have yet to see a drill bit size, that a cordless drill should be used for, that the other drills do faster.  So I am curious what application you are doing to create these results.

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I am using a 7/8 inch auger bit or 1 inch spade bits too.

Ok, this does not make any sense.  I regularly use 2 9/16th inch self feeds through the 18v and 20v premium drills, and never have a problem.  A spade bit or auger of that size should not be any issue at all, unless under extreme side load/binding. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

I to was frustrated with the "unit watts out" voodoo.  If you want to know the torque specs for Dewalt drills go to a UK website such as toolstop.co.uk.  Over there they don't use that UWO mess.  You will have to convert from Nm (Newton Meters) to pound inch.  I use an on-line conversion website.  The DC980L:

http://www.toolstop.co.uk/dewalt-dcd980l2-18v-xr-li-ion-premium-3-speed-xrp-drill-driver-2-x-3ah-batteries-p15708

is listed as as having 55Nm or 486.79 inch pounds of torque.  I'm no engineer, but my guess is that DeWalt builds their transmissions to maximize whatever torque the motor produces to perform the work as efficiently as possible.  It obviously works.  I just wish they would just state as much instead of spewing out some cryptic formulated number.  At the end of the day I went with Bosch as the majority of my corded tools are Bosch.  I have been extremely satisfied with the Bosch cordless tools.  The new 20v and 12v DeWalts look really nice though.  But I am already neck deep in 12v Bosch as well.

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A 2 9/16th self feeding bit seems a little much to ask or expect from a cordless. I use a corded drill for anything over 1 1/2.

I agree a 7/8th should not present any problem. I've used 1 1/4 augers with no problem at all.

I am using a 7/8 inch auger bit or 1 inch spade bits too.

Ok, this does not make any sense.  I regularly use 2 9/16th inch self feeds through the 18v and 20v premium drills, and never have a problem.  A spade bit or auger of that size should not be any issue at all, unless under extreme side load/binding. 

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A 2 9/16th self feeding bit seems a little much to ask or expect from a cordless. I use a corded drill for anything over 1 1/2.

I agree a 7/8th should not present any problem. I've used 1 1/4 augers with no problem at all.

I am using a 7/8 inch auger bit or 1 inch spade bits too.

Ok, this does not make any sense.  I regularly use 2 9/16th inch self feeds through the 18v and 20v premium drills, and never have a problem.  A spade bit or auger of that size should not be any issue at all, unless under extreme side load/binding. 

That's the point.  The DeWALT's (both 18v and 20v MAX) are more than able to do the 2 9/16th inch bits.  If you are doing a lot of holes, then obviously you will be happier running a cord, but the point is that the cordless versions will in fact do the application quite well.  All that was to say that it sounds odd to me that they are having trouble with such a smaller application unless they are under VERY heavy side load or bind.

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Given the OP's post I don't see a heavy side load as likely.

The self feeding auger (and self feeding spade bits) have very aggressive feed rates and therefore need a low speed/high torque gear. With my old XRP you could force the drill but there's no way to do that on the new 20V max. In third gear the electronics shut the drill down even with a 1" self feeding auger into a new 2x4.

I'm not answering the question if they should, just pointing out they can't. The OP's expectation to be able to use largish bits on high speed is not realistic with the newer drills. Also, while you could be aggressive with the old XRP's you may not have gained much anyway..

One finial point on the OP's question. Knowing max torque won't help if you don't want to use the low gear.

That's the point.  The DeWALT's (both 18v and 20v MAX) are more than able to do the 2 9/16th inch bits.  If you are doing a lot of holes, then obviously you will be happier running a cord, but the point is that the cordless versions will in fact do the application quite well.  All that was to say that it sounds odd to me that they are having trouble with such a smaller application unless they are under VERY heavy side load or bind.

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Given the OP's post I don't see a heavy side load as likely.

The self feeding auger (and self feeding spade bits) have very aggressive feed rates and therefore need a low speed/high torque gear. With my old XRP you could force the drill but there's no way to do that on the new 20V max. In third gear the electronics shut the drill down even with a 1" self feeding auger into a new 2x4.

I'm not answering the question if they should, just pointing out they can't. The OP's expectation to be able to use largish bits on high speed is not realistic with the newer drills. Also, while you could be aggressive with the old XRP's you may not have gained much anyway..

One finial point on the OP's question. Knowing max torque won't help if you don't want to use the low gear.

That's the point.  The DeWALT's (both 18v and 20v MAX) are more than able to do the 2 9/16th inch bits.  If you are doing a lot of holes, then obviously you will be happier running a cord, but the point is that the cordless versions will in fact do the application quite well.  All that was to say that it sounds odd to me that they are having trouble with such a smaller application unless they are under VERY heavy side load or bind.

Sorry, not sure if I missed this in the original post, but I didn't catch the "high speed" portion.  i regularly use 2 9/16th self feed bits in 1st gear, not 3rd.  Sorry for my misunderstanding.

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  • 1 year later...

After reading all of these posts, I decided to research the numbers listed in the european sites. I am very curious about the 36v tools because energy is energy. Transmission gearing does not matter. Torque is affected by gearing, but not power. Mechanical power and its equivalent, electrical power, is a combination of torque and time, volts and amps. So, we have a tradeoff between voltage and efficient energy storage, and current and motor efficiency. Higher voltage makes more intense magnetic fields, but it also creates electrical resistance and heat buildup, which kills motor efficiency and wastes battery power. In a nutshell, I found that both the NiCd and LiIon 18v drills were rated at 55Nm. interestingly, the reviews for the 36v drill were glowing over battery life, but curiously, the max torque was rated at only 42Nm! The 18v drills spin faster in all three gears. Return to the principles that with equivalent power, high speed=low torque. Well, the 36v drill is both lower torque and lower speed, which means that the power consumed is significantly lower (or the motor is LESS efficient, which I doubt). No wonder the battery lasts all day. At this point, unless I discover that the 36v torque rating was an error, I'll stick with my 18v.

Using a 1" spade bit I bore a hole into an end grain Ash dunnage board, and when I hit a hole I corssdrilled, the drill ripped itself out of my grip and busted half my thumb nail off! Now, I'm STILL curious to do a heads up comparison. I also used to drive 4" deck screws in on 3rd gear, all the time! Truth is, speed helps eliminate static friction which is higher than dynamic friction, between the wood and the fastener. I also believe the transmission does not have to reduce the motor speed in 3rd gear, which is probably why my tranny is still going strong .

I REALLY love the metal chuck with the free-spinning ring! When I want to do something ultra-precise, I can guide the front of the drill with excellent control by holding onto that ring. I've used the other kind, and I'm not very impressed. An option for 5/8" chuck would be kewl, as I have come across many old large size pits that are bigger than 1/2". Kewl, but not necessary.

If anybody is driven enough, you CAN create a mini dyno to check max torque using basic materials.

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It kind of seems like you're over-thinking this.  I'm pretty sure all of us could be productive and make money with any pro drill, they're actually all pretty competitive.  One of the reasons torque numbers are fairly useless is they don't tell you what RPM the drill is producing that torque at.  All things being equal, you can double the torque by re-gearing to half the RPM, but what good would that do us?  The only way to really compare would be if manufacturers published torque curves, or at least torque @ a specific RPM.

UWO, while a bit confusing, is a little more useful, or it would be if all manufacturers used it.  Since 725 foot pounds of torque at zero RPM is zero watts, these peak torque figures don't tell us much about how much work the drill can do, though they might tell us how hard of a knot they can power through without stalling.  UWO, on the other hand, is at least a measure of power.  The drills probably put out the most power when loaded to about half RPM.  Solve 535 watts and 300 RPMs for torque and you get about 160 inch pounds.  Not much, but obviously comparable to other top drills.  But if one manufacturer started giving us real numbers like this, they would look bad to the average non-engineer consumer, so they've gotten themselves into this bind where the only thing they can do is come up with a new cryptic measurement, like UWO.

For now the best thing you can do is multiply RPM in first gear by torque, and compare those numbers if you must compare between brands.

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A common thing about electric motors: They produce 90% of their torque from 0 rpm and reach their peak operating rpm very quickly. You started to hit the nail when you talked about power being equivalent to the amount of work that can be done. The only thing that can change from one model or brand to another is the efficiency of the motor and switching system. No matter what RPM is used, a more efficient drive system (including friction from transmission and bearings) will be able to do more work for the same battery capacity. 

Another simple way of looking at this is relative battery capacity vs. max usage. I could say compare two drills with the same battery, but one has a smaller motor. Obviously the one with the smaller motor will outlast, and potentially drive more small diameter screws, thus increasing utility. Dont be confused by higher voltage numbers. What really counts with batteries is the capacity in watts or Amp-hours.

Now, the other way to compare two drills is to think of two drills with the same size motor connected to two different sized batteries. Obviously the one with the biggest capacity will last the longest. Well, the biggest NiCd battery is 2.4Ah, where the LiIon battery has a 3.0Ah capacity. Regardless of the voltage, the 3Ah battery will outperform the other battery.

Combine a bigger battery with a smaller motor and you get a drill that lasts a lot longer for most tasks. The only thing lost is extreme performance. Wit the complaints about the 36v drill getting stuck.

Torque relates directly to whether or not a drill will stall out under a large bit or power through it. This was one complaint with the 36v drill! Lasts all day but stalls out more easily than the 18v.

Therefore, all we need to make good comparisons are Torque, max RPM and Battery power in Amps. Anybody can decide what is more important for their own usage, extreme torque or lots of speed or long lasting power.

It just so happened to be that the 18v NiCd drill has the highest RPM and the highest torque numbers. What does this mean from a usage point? It means that the motor is likely capable of drawing more power and battery life is not as long, but you can get more done during that discharge period and less likely to stall the drill.

The reason I brought up driving in 4" deck screws in top gear is because under high torque low RPM situations, losses from internal friction of the transmission can be significant. This means that driving in a fastener at high speed takes less power than it does at low speed. A similar example is driving a nail into wood. Pounding one in with slow speed swings takes forever, but one very fast hit can sink the nail in one shot. Its just to illustrate the difference between kinetic and static friction.

Honestly, I don't know if DeWalt introduced the UWO to bamboozle the competition or the customer. Who would buy a high voltage setup if the 18v can generate more torque? Is it just a marketing gimmick or is it to attempt to show useful power. In purely engineering or scientific arenas, anytime you see the word unit in a measurement it means literally, per unit. If we dissect Unit Watt Output , I'd have to guess it has to do with a unitless or unmentioned measure of 'utility' per watt of power put through the motor. Again, the 36v motor generates less torque and uses less power, therefore the same capacity battery will last longer. And, since most operations such as drilling small holes or driving short screws do not require max torque or power, a lower power output could be considered an easy tradeoff for much more 'utility' overall. Divide that utility by the watts put in and you have UWO. Then the only decision left is to decide the gearing required to turn the maximum recommended bit at the optimal speed for that bit. Bits are designed for a maximum efficiency at a specific RPM. Larger bits generally do not have to turn as fast, so spinning the bit at max rpm does not always work well.

But this brings up a different compromise: the different needs for drilling vs. driving. Driving has two extremes: long and skinny or long and fat. 4" deck screws can be driven at max speed because the higher speed drops friction enough to make it so the motor can muscle it in (at least deWalt 18v drills can!). Larger diameter screws such as 1/2" lag bolts can easily require more torque than the motor generates at the shaft, so a transmission is used to amplify the torque. But in either case, max torque is needed from the motor. Drilling is altogether different. Once you pull the trigger, the motor jumps to max rpm and burns energy whether you are drilling or not. This is one source of power loss. But, when drilling with small bits, the max torque needed never reaches capacity, and energy is wasted, unless the switching is sophisticated enough to reduce current but not voltage, keep the rpms up while matching torque needed for the job. On the other hand, large diameter bits need to match most efficient rpm for the bit with enough torque from the motor to turn the bit under binding conditions. This is where top of the line models should shine, IMHO. That 36v drill should be capable of generating at least 50% more torque than the 18v drill. Not because I want to see a dead or overheated battery, but because the standard is still a corded drill for torque. There should be no drop in energy density between an 18v and a 36v battery, but the 36v should be able to dump that juice faster for more extreme performance, and have better power management for low power applications. Its a lot like a car with a very high performance engine. Just because it has 1000hp and 1000 ft-lb of torque, doesn't mean it can't also be efficient (think turbo 4's and 6's vs large displacement engines). It just depends on your usage, but having the performance available when you want or need it, can make or break customer loyalty.

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I understand that maximum Torque figures might sway end user's decision at point of purchase, but I think nowadays there are more things that come into account..

It also seems a numbers game to me... In Europe we have 18v, in the U.S. you have 20v Max..  we have 10.8v and the U.S. has 12v Max.. Same outputs, different descriptions, different reasons to come to the same conclusion..

Other factors that I prefer (with the New Dewalt range) is the intelligent switching on these New XR units.. I too have had drills in the past that didn't stall upon usage, but what really happens.. the motors burn out, the batteries are continually damaged and premature failing occurs.

These new drills (as all of the XR range) have intelligent switching that measures Battery temp (upper and lower), Motor temp, RPM, Max power spike of the Battery etc... If any of these are not within Dewalt's optimum (for longevity) settings, the switch will 'enforce' an apparent stall until such times that the tradesman adjusts setting accordingly (usually change of torque setting by virtue of gearbox speed)

Dewalt can now take a readout of any New 'Slide-pack' tool and it will measure everything on a readout. Hot Pack shutdowns, Cold pack shutdowns, Max spike, Max motor temp, number of forward trigger pulls, number of reverse. How many stalls, and even how many no-load shutdowns (the number if times the drill is shut down due to trigger being engaged in the back if the truck by mistake during transit).. In fact the drill will recognise this situation, and shut down so that the battery is not drained..

You could say that the drill is becoming more intelligent than it's users.. (not all, and not a generalisation of this thread).. If (as per the OP) the Bosch drill seems to out perform the Dewalt, is this actually so, or at what cost to the internals/electronics or batteries of the product..

For me, this intelligent protection is useful as I have several guys that use my tools. They are good on the most part, but when Women or Booze has had a better influence over a weekend, then the brain takes a whole lot longer to get up to speed on a Monday. This normally (in the past) results in any size auger in the drill, speed three, and push like crazy.

Not any more, as the drill let these guys know that brain has not yet engaged.. and will not function properly until the end user changes his attitude towards his own thought process...

Not saying that this is playing a part of the original problem of this thread, just saying that there is whole load more to a drill nowadays other than torque and battery size.. and offering a thought as to why the OP is finding 'stalls' on the Dewalt when maybe in the past he wouldn't.

When we get to Brushless drills (later this Autumn/Fall with Dewalt I believe) then things change yet again as far as comparable run times over standard Li-ion units.. although this will have no bearing on like for like Torque figures..

As time goes on, understanding the 'numbers game' is going to become increasingly harder, and Brand loyalty is going to play a more important role in future purchases for tradesmen..

I am not one to buy the cheapest of each tool, or the individual tools because they reach the maximum numbers for each category. For me, a one battery platform is massively important, as I know that I will never have an issue with a 'dead' tool, and therefore optimum battery performance figures are slightly less important. If i've got 10 batteries in the truck that fit all my range, what does it matter if Makita or Bosch bring out a unit that performs marginally better (on paper).. And with intelligent switching to protect my batteries, my Dewalt kit (in my opinion) is going to outlast most of the competition..

All I know, that anyone who uses my XR range of Dewalt tools here in the UK, generally end up changing their opinions and following suit down the Dewalt route...

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I want to clarify one thing that seems to be a little bit misunderstood.  Voltage alone or Amps alone do not really tell us anything.  Volts x Amps = Watts = Power (and I'm not talking amp-hours, that's capacity, not power).  This is why an 18V drill can feasibly outperform a 36V drill.  In fact, you could reconfigure an 18V 3.0 amp-hour battery to be 36V 1.5 amp-hour.  They have 10 3.6V 1.5 amp hour cells after all.  But power would be identical.

This is why 18V seems to be the current sweet spot for flexibility, performance, and marketability.  The 1.5/2.0 batteries have 5 cells in series.  The 3.0/4.0 have two sets of 5 cells in series.  Same voltage, double the capacity and potentially double the power.  The tools and motors can be designed to draw higher amperage with the higher capacity battery.

Here's where more confusion comes in.  Part of the reason the 36V (actually 33V) tools were so powerful is the 10 cells they had were physically bigger, and actually 2.2 amp hours each.  The new 36V (33v) dewalt packs actually have 20 smaller cells, but they are 3.3 volts and 1.1 amp hours each, for the same rated capacity.  So 33V X 2.2 amp hours gives us a 72.6 watt hour battery.  The new 20/18V 4.0 packs are 18V x 4 = 72 watt-hours, in a smaller, more flexible size.  When coupled with brushless, it's likely we'll get more work out of these 18V drills.  DeWalt and others could go a step farther and make a 6.0 battery with 3 sets of cells, that would still fit all the 18V tools, and easily outperform 36V.

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VERY interesting thing about the intelligent battery packs: Instant source of useful usage feedback for engineering optimization and customer needs. Rather slick, but also rather underhanded, like big brother watching every time I use my tools, not cool. They know we will recycle their batteries, all they have to do is collect them and upload the usage data.

Bottom line is, I pay a premium for tools that perform to the max. Motor burns out? Replace the motor. It is worth the performance! And I have put my drills through mixing mud, driving 4" deck screws, hanging sheetrock, framing with screws, drilling through stucco with 4" hole saws, hammering into concrete, and running light and heavy electrical using spades and augers, with very little time spent in first or second gear. In fact, I usually only use those gears when the battery is nearly dead and I just need to finish sinking a screw. I have only ever replaced one drill, the transmission failed and would not switch back to high gear (I should have never put it into first gear!). My other two 18v drills are starting to show the need for new brushes--after more than 10 years of abuse! If anything, DeWalt should be NEVER sacrifice max performance. People are simple and usually make quick associations like High Voltage=More Power. And in the minds of most users, More Power=More capabilities and for longer times. Not stalling out because some self preservation circuit decided the load was too much. Forcing an employee or user to switch to a lower gear creates a common situation: Plenty of times, a slower bit speed will actually significantly reduce its cutting efficiency, which means that using a slower gear to ramp up the torque will actually require to drill to work harder and longer, and it will mean the employee will not be able to get as much done.

Good explanation of capacity vs power, which are indeed two different things, but they are equivalent in the sense that the power output of a motor times its efficiency can never exceed the capacity of the batteries, in fact the output times its efficiency is EQUAL to the capacity of the battery.

Honestly, I think DeWalt is gearing up for hybrid ultracap/battery sources that will require intelligent switching. the advantage will be higher max performance (if the motor can HANDLE it), quicker charging and no battery cycle limits.

I love my cordless tools, and the only way I'd upgrade to the 36v or even the 20v line is if max performance is improved. I'm not as concerned with battery life, that's what multi port chargers and extra batteries are for. I detest waiting for my tools to perform. And until the corded tools lose their status as the benchmark for performance, then performance should be the metric.

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VERY interesting thing about the intelligent battery packs: Instant source of useful usage feedback for engineering optimization and customer needs.

Just to clarify (as my post doesn't make it totally clear) that the Intelligence is in the Tool, not the battery..

In the past, Dewalt tried putting the Intelligence in the Batteries, but in hindsight, it is obvious that this was totally wrong. A battery suffers from different loads and requirements form each tool. A torch/flashlight will not put any loading on the battery, but the intelligence required from the Torch/flashlight (not the battery) is to electronically protect the battery against being discharged beyond safe limits, from which the cells become damaged and maximum re-charge can never be achieved.

The same goes for a Radio for example.. On the other hand, the demands on a battery in a Circ. Saw, SDS, or Re-cip are on another level.. Hence the intelligence checking for battery temp (upper and lower) motor temp, motor RPM, load on the battery and discharge 'spikes' of the battery...

As you say, a great use of feedback to make better tools for the future based upon realtime applications, and potentially more powerful battery cells..

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Thank you very much for that clarification. I assumed that if DeWalt was going to log usage through their batteries, they would have realized this and created logs that could be serialized or identified by the type of tool used. Otherwise, you are correct, they would not get useful information. I also thought that the recycled batteries would be the easiest to retrieve. Otherwise, how would DeWalt retrieve the data? I would guess that the only data available would be from failed tools that would reflect the 2% of extreme abusers and 1% of manufacturing defects. This would obviously skew the data. Perhaps this is exactly why DeWalt made their business decisions the way they did.  I hope they never stop producing the 18v NiCd series until the other stuff can outperform on the extreme end.

Thank you again.

JP

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