steve1616 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 I was just wondering what everyones thoughts were on the differences between the new 20 volt system and 18 volt. I was looking to invest in one of the lines, but it is hard to know for sure which way to go. I was wondering if we could outlay advantages and disadvantages. I do already have a current kit that has the DCD 951 Hammerdrill and 825 impact driver. This kit came with 3 of the 9096 batteries. I have read a bunch of information and it seems like the older 18 volt line has a better battery (lithium), but with a little less gas in the tank. I like extra gas in the tank, but I also own a V28 milwaukee set of batteries, and would just die for reliable batteries instead. The extra gas in the tank on my V28 set was good for 4 months, and then they were just terrible. I actually like the Nicads that came with my set. They seem way less tempermental than the lithiums. I do like the idea of being able to use a cheap nicad if I need to. I wanted to throw up having to pay $130 for a battery. I want the most reliable tool, I can buy. I would love the new lightness and ergonomics of the 20 volt line if I didn't give up an ounce of reliability and battery life. Whats everyones opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjones Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Both are great options (I know that does not help you a lot). The 18v line is a time proven system, and as you stated, it will run both ni-cad and lithium ion. However, if you are not invested in a line (or are willing to switch to a non-compatible system) the 20v MAX is proving to be an awesome line, and as far as battery issues, it has a 3 year bumper to bumper warranty, which is a year more than you get with 18v. At the end of the day, both systems are really great options, so either choice will be great for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkfan23 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 The 20v system would be my choice over te older XRP NICD's for sure. WAY better ergonomics with the addition of the slide pack, and as just stated above, a better battery warranty as well. Although it is a new tool line, I'm sure more tools are on the horizon to appease customers who want to continue to build their portable tool collection. As far as the V28 batteries- this was a first attempt at Lithium power by Milwaukee, so unfortunately, that is to be expected. I would see if you could talk to a local rep and maybe get either swapped or prorated into the new M28 packs as they are compatible with V28 system and from what I can see, are a very much improved battery. Main thing here is to try out all your options with hands on if you can- that is truly the best way to find what is going to be YOUR best fit! Happy hunting and Happy New Year!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadevi Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Work wise, in use I don't notice a difference. I prefer the slide pack, they much more comfortable in the hand. I sold my older tools which helped offset some of the investment. Also, a feature not marketed enough is the 20V Max charger will also charge the 12V Max. If you have the Dewalt 12V Max line, this is very convenient. I would like to see Dewalt go one step further and kit the 12V tools with the 20V charger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 I hear mixed reviews (like/dislike) about the 20v Max at the construction site; one said batteries dont last, one said his broke, then one said his battery lasts a long time, one said its the most comfortable.... (Dont shoot the messenger.) I dont own any 20v, so I cant say. I do like my 18v Li-Ion & 12v Max, I dont recall hearing anything bad being said about the 18v line. For now, 18v tools/batteries are easier to come by. There is more bigger selection of 18v (40+ tools). But give it a year or two and the 20v might overwhelm the 18v line, like when the 18v line overwhelmed the 14.4v line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1616 Posted January 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 I appreciate all the feedback so far. I have only changed my mind 100 times since yesterday on what line I should buy. I am going to the stores today and just feel the tools in my hands. If the 20 volt doesn't seem better ergonomically, then I will definitely buy the 18 volt line. I really want a 3/8 square drive impact and so far the 18 volt line seems to be the only line with that tool. I would love my V28 set if it wasn't for battery problems so I think my purchase needs to come down to the battery. I like the versatility on the 18 volt set simply because I can use the nicads for everyday use when fatigue isn't a concern, but I can switch to lithium when I could get operator fatigue. I could also just get the 20 volt set and use it for its ergonomics and use my 18 volt set with nicads for rugged use. I like the 3 year warranty on the 20 volt system. I also like that getting rid of the pod battery might make it possible to incorperate a better handle. The only thing that caught my attention on the Dewalt hammer drill is that it feels like the handle is going to crack in my hands when it is under a good load. I have a close friend that runs all ridgid tools, and I was thinking about going that way because he gets free batteries whenever he wants. The problem with that option is that I am helping my brother build a house and the dewalt impact driver drives screws almost 2x faster than his ridgid. On a side note, I took my V28 batteries down to the service center this morning, and I was able to get one replaced. My completely dead battery wouldn't read out on the machine so they replaced it. The other 2 batteries tested out good even though they don't last for 5 minutes. It is because I just charged them and they show the proper voltage. They don't load the battery at all. This is so stupid because everyone knows that batteries need to be loaded to test for voltage drop. Many bad batteries look just fine at idle as far as voltage readings are concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanxrus Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 20v Max is 100% lithium. Lithium is the future, as quirky as it is, it's just a fact. Lithium batteries are going to evolve. Metabo just announced they will be coming out the a 4.0ah 18v battery. Milwaukee, Makita, Hitachi, and other's are coming out with brushless motor's. When Dewalt launches these innovations, it will more than likely be in the 20v max line, and not the 18v line. Lithium batteries will increase in capacity, and durability. Brushless motor's are on the horizon, and you don't want to be locked out of any of these new innovative options. As capacity increases, that will open up new tool's that one never thought possible in cordless. 20v max is just getting started, and 2-3yrs from now I'm sure it will grow into the 40+ tool line the 18v is today. If it were me, and I was not invested into the 18v line already, and I was shopping around for the latest technology. 20v max would be my choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadevi Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Have you considered if you need this level of tool. If you still using NICAD's these latest generation of Li tools may be more than you need. I know a contractor who's using Ryobi, for him it's a third the cost and that's cost effective even if they don't hold up as long. If your wanting to use Nicads still because they cheaper, you could get Ryobi's LI's for close to the same cost (maybe less). For the most part I've found corded tools better. They significantly cheaper, and no batteries to worry about. For me these work because I have plugs close by. I know it's not the question you asked, but I really think you should ask yourself do I really need the latest tools, and have one or two tools where a less expensive option for the same $ you could have a set where the ongoing cost (batteries mostly) will be less than half the $. I appreciate all the feedback so far. I have only changed my mind 100 times since yesterday on what line I should buy. I am going to the stores today and just feel the tools in my hands. If the 20 volt doesn't seem better ergonomically, then I will definitely buy the 18 volt line. I really want a 3/8 square drive impact and so far the 18 volt line seems to be the only line with that tool. I would love my V28 set if it wasn't for battery problems so I think my purchase needs to come down to the battery. I like the versatility on the 18 volt set simply because I can use the nicads for everyday use when fatigue isn't a concern, but I can switch to lithium when I could get operator fatigue. I could also just get the 20 volt set and use it for its ergonomics and use my 18 volt set with nicads for rugged use. I like the 3 year warranty on the 20 volt system. I also like that getting rid of the pod battery might make it possible to incorperate a better handle. The only thing that caught my attention on the Dewalt hammer drill is that it feels like the handle is going to crack in my hands when it is under a good load. I have a close friend that runs all ridgid tools, and I was thinking about going that way because he gets free batteries whenever he wants. The problem with that option is that I am helping my brother build a house and the dewalt impact driver drives screws almost 2x faster than his ridgid. On a side note, I took my V28 batteries down to the service center this morning, and I was able to get one replaced. My completely dead battery wouldn't read out on the machine so they replaced it. The other 2 batteries tested out good even though they don't last for 5 minutes. It is because I just charged them and they show the proper voltage. They don't load the battery at all. This is so stupid because everyone knows that batteries need to be loaded to test for voltage drop. Many bad batteries look just fine at idle as far as voltage readings are concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1616 Posted January 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Anadevi, the nicads are the same level of tool as the Li tools. I would go as far to say that they are even better, but just weigh a little more. I work in very low temperatures at times of the year where the lithium batteries just haven't worked for me. I don't use my tools every single day, but when I do use them, I do very hard tasks. I drill through metal electrical panels a lot with big hole saw bits. Some drills can't even get one hole done. Your point is still valid no matter whether you use the tools every day or not. In fact, I almost think that guys that use the tools every day need to think very hard about brands like ridgid that offer lifetime battery replacement. It is an absolute engineering failure when the batteries cost more to buy than the tools. Especially considering how many problems I have had with lithium. I would absolutely be ecstatic if the new generation of lithium were as consistent as the nicads I have went back to. I think my last thought has more to do with batteries in the new dewalt. I was just getting to the point of buying the iron phosphate batteries that dewalt has for the 18 volt line. I read a bunch about it, and the iron phosphate seems way better than the other technologies. This is the only thing holding me back from trying a 20 volt system. I might be wrong, but it looks like dewalt is using the technology closer to the competition on this new line. I am just scared that this might come back to bite me. I can buy the 20 volt line for less than the 18 volt right now, and they will throw in a free extra battery. I think I might wait to see if this site can test the 18 volt impact driver against the 20 volt impact driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 ....20v max is just getting started, and 2-3yrs from now I'm sure it will grow into the 40+ tool line the 18v is today. If it were me, and I was not invested into the 18v line already, and I was shopping around for the latest technology. 20v max would be my choice. Good points. Being in construction for years, I remember when the 3.6v drills came out (they look alot like the current Craftsman Nextec 12v drill). They were wimpy & almost worthless, with one speed forward/reverse, small 1/4" keyed chuck, & built in battery. Only had enough power to drill/drive into drywall. Then 1 year later the 4.8v. Then the 6.0v, 7.2v, 9.6v, 10.2v, 12v, 14.4, 18v...... I had them all. They were all the newest greatest thing. But your cordless became obsolete within a couple years (could not find parts or batteries). I dont know it all, but with all my years of experience I would like to say that I think 'the biggest killer of a cordless tool is not being able to find replacement batteries', please keep this in mind when investing in new cordless tools. So thats why I went with the Dewalt 18v system- the high quality & most popular at the time (can find the tools, batteries, parts, accessories, & service centers everywhere). But I have learned one thing, when it comes to cordless tools there are no guarantees if you can get any kind of support a few years later. Everything will eventually be replaced with a better (non-compatable) model. Who knows what will be around 10 years from now. The cordless tool market is the most unstable of them all. I know my Dewalt tools can last that long (like my DC759 drill has), but will batteries/parts be around? For now, it would probably be the wise choice to invest in the 20v Max if you are starting off, but whats going to replace it a few years from now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1616 Posted January 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 I kind of think the 20 volt max line of tools will take off because they seem pretty nice, but I thought this same thing about the Milwaukee v28. It still hasn't taken off, and they almost deleted this line all together. I am willing to try something new, but there are a lot of people just like me that switched over to dewalt for the consistency of the nicad batteries. I am actually wondering if this alone will keep the 18 volt line going longer than the 20 volt. I have been asking many of the contractors what they buy. I think almost all of them have either ridgid because of the lifetime batteries or dewalt because of the nicads. A small few run the M18 (V18) and are very happy also. They said that they simply keep trading batteries in every three years for new ones while under warranty. I used to be a huge milwaukee fanboy. That is why I bought the V28. Most of my chorded tools are milwaukee. I came into the supply house to get a v28 battery. I told the counterman the trouble I was having. I couldn't even finish a job because I couldn't drill 2 big holes through a panel on 4 batteries on my v28 because the cold weather makes them worthless. He said that was the same reason most of his customers have switched over to Dewalt with the Nicads for really cold weather. I bought the Dewalt set, and did the same job on less than 2 batteries. I have been a big proponent of the nicads ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadevi Posted January 5, 2012 Report Share Posted January 5, 2012 Thank you for the reply Steve, It's been a while since I used Nicad's. My main issue with the Nicad's were runtime and recharge time so the LI's were compelling. I understand exactly where you are coming from now, I bought into the Ridgid Xli tools and experience the issues you refer to with the Milwaukee V28's. After a few months they would charge but they could not hold the charge for long. The original Milwaukee M12 batteries I also used had similar problems. Somewhere in the mix I also tried some of the NiMH's. Anadevi, the nicads are the same level of tool as the Li tools. I would go as far to say that they are even better, but just weigh a little more. I work in very low temperatures at times of the year where the lithium batteries just haven't worked for me. I don't use my tools every single day, but when I do use them, I do very hard tasks. I drill through metal electrical panels a lot with big hole saw bits. Some drills can't even get one hole done. Your point is still valid no matter whether you use the tools every day or not. In fact, I almost think that guys that use the tools every day need to think very hard about brands like ridgid that offer lifetime battery replacement. It is an absolute engineering failure when the batteries cost more to buy than the tools. Especially considering how many problems I have had with lithium. I would absolutely be ecstatic if the new generation of lithium were as consistent as the nicads I have went back to. I think my last thought has more to do with batteries in the new dewalt. I was just getting to the point of buying the iron phosphate batteries that dewalt has for the 18 volt line. I read a bunch about it, and the iron phosphate seems way better than the other technologies. This is the only thing holding me back from trying a 20 volt system. I might be wrong, but it looks like dewalt is using the technology closer to the competition on this new line. I am just scared that this might come back to bite me. I can buy the 20 volt line for less than the 18 volt right now, and they will throw in a free extra battery. I think I might wait to see if this site can test the 18 volt impact driver against the 20 volt impact driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace18 Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 What is the benefit of the brushless motors and when will Dewalt start using them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanxrus Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Advantage is a smaller more efficient motor that is virtually maintenance free, and last's longer than traditional brushed motor's. Cost has been the biggest factor. No-one know's if Dewalt will enter the cordless market with a brushless motor or not. It certainly seem's obvious that they will when the market is starting to shift that way. Dewalt already has EnduraTech brushless Motor technology in the D26456 sander that was launched early last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1616 Posted January 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I don't know a lot about brushless motors, but I used to tinker with RC cars for a while. Brushless motors made the nitro engine almost obsolete because they were getting unbelievable performance from brushless motors. I remember that you could apply more voltage safely to a brushless motor. The only downfall to the brushless was more expensive motor controls, but since lithium batteries already introduced electronics into cordlesss tools the next obvious step would be to implement brushless motors. I would guess that Dewalt will wait for the technology to get a little more affordable. They don't need to make the jump yet because they are already competing just fine against brushless motors with their brushed motors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace18 Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I thought I heard someone say. that the motors used in the 12V max drills were the same motors used in some remote control rece cars. not sure if the info is true or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanxrus Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Just about every sub-compact 12v lithium driver on the market, is currently using a MABUCHI MOTOR. and yes they make motor's for toy's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1616 Posted January 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Has anyone else noticed that the new dewalt 20 volt batteries are very reasonably priced. I hope they are almost just as good as the old iron phospahate batteries. I am really hoping that the 20 volt line will come out with a 3/8 impact that is powerful. I was going to pick up the Dewalt 18 volt 3/8 impact, but it isn't really powerful. I don't want to buy milwaukee after the V28 experience, but they have a very powerful 3/8 impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerdrillsoure-com Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 The new 20v line looks promising I will have to check back after some tests... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1616 Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 It might be cheaper for me to just buy the 20 volt line. It would be better than going to home depot every week to keep seeing how they feel in my hands. If I buy them, I can just put them in my hands here at home. I am hoping that they release a 3/8 impact driver. That is what I am holding out for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1616 Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Does anyone know if the 20 volt max line has new motors or do they have the same tried and true motors that were in the 18 volt line. I am mainly interested in the motor on the impact drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanxrus Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 I've taken the DCF885 apart, and it look's to be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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