So as promised... What's your beef with Lowes?

[BMack37]

Yea, I can always park close to the door.

In 2003 or so when they switched Kobalt from J.H. Williams to Danher made tools, I was disappointed. The original Kobalt line was the best value in tools bar none. The sockets were Snap-On, ratchets and wrenches were Blue Point, all from the Snap-On family. After the Danher switch, most items were genetically identical to Craftsman or Allen tools. Kobalt lost the unique identity and the tools were continually cheapened to meet price point. They lost me around 2006 and by the end of the Danaher run around 2012, the Taiwan made stuff they have now is actually an improvement.

Shit happens I guess. I still preferred Lowe's at that point. Then in a short few months they lost or dropped Milwaukee, dropped Klein and bought the rights to use the Southwire name on an exclusive electrical/telecom line, and then dropped both Channellock and Knipex in favor of their Kobalt shit, again an exclusively grab.

My experience is that anything available exclusively at either HD or Lowe's automatically translates to pure, unfiltered, SHIT.

HD has exclusive brands too, but at least they give me a higher quality option on all but mechanics tools.

Fuck Lowe's and their shitty tools

 

Those Kobalt ratchet/socket sets were labeled as "Made by Williams" not Blue Point(Obviously sister companies soo really a moot point). I have a set and it's the nicest ratchet and socket set I've ever used. I wish I would have bought a couple of 1/4" sets and a 1/2" set, hindsight is a b*tch...but I was just a poor kid in high school at the time.

[DR99]

Yea, I can always park close to the door.

In 2003 or so when they switched Kobalt from J.H. Williams to Danher made tools, I was disappointed. The original Kobalt line was the best value in tools bar none. The sockets were Snap-On, ratchets and wrenches were Blue Point, all from the Snap-On family. After the Danher switch, most items were genetically identical to Craftsman or Allen tools. Kobalt lost the unique identity and the tools were continually cheapened to meet price point. They lost me around 2006 and by the end of the Danaher run around 2012, the Taiwan made stuff they have now is actually an improvement.

Shit happens I guess. I still preferred Lowe's at that point. Then in a short few months they lost or dropped Milwaukee, dropped Klein and bought the rights to use the Southwire name on an exclusive electrical/telecom line, and then dropped both Channellock and Knipex in favor of their Kobalt shit, again an exclusively grab.

My experience is that anything available exclusively at either HD or Lowe's automatically translates to pure, unfiltered, SHIT.

HD has exclusive brands too, but at least they give me a higher quality option on all but mechanics tools.

Fuck Lowe's and their shitty tools

The loss of Milwaukee after TTI bought Milwaukee out and Klein really hurt Lowe's offerings when it comes to high end tool brands. I have heard Metabo might start showing up at some Lowe's stores but I'm not betting the farm on it. It would be a big help and get tool buyers from HD. Home Depot having exclusives on Makita Milwaukee and Ryobi just kills Lowes. Makita and Milwaukee with the pro grade tools and Ryobi just kills it with the value and crazy lineup of tools you can get a freaking cordless nailer to a hedge trimmer that uses the same battery. It's a great option for a home owner or even a moderate DIY person.

[Conductor562]

Those Kobalt ratchet/socket sets were labeled as "Made by Williams" not Blue Point(Obviously sister companies soo really a moot point). I have a set and it's the nicest ratchet and socket set I've ever used. I wish I would have bought a couple of 1/4" sets and a 1/2" set, hindsight is a b*tch...but I was just a poor kid in high school at the time.

This isn't my first Kobalt conversation. Yes, those ratchets, like about all of the first generation Kobalt tools made between 1998 and late 2002-ish, were labeled "J.H. Williams: A Division of Snap-On" or something to that effect. Now here's how that shook out in reality.

Lowe's, seeking a bonafide house brand of tools to compete in the premium homeowner mechanics tools market, didn't do a lot of searching for an OEM. They pretty much had Snap-On in mind from the start. They wanted to make a big entrance into the market and knew that a known association with Snap-On would provide just that. Snap-On was willing to provide that, though somewhat indirectly through their J.H. Williams industrial brand.

While the J.H. Williams Div. was the contract holder, Snap-On supplied Kobalt from across their existing product lines. Much of the hard line stuff (including the ratchets) was actually sourced from the Blue Point mechanics line rather than Williams. To this day you can buy an "evolved" form of these ratchets from Blue Point, though they have more teeth and are made in Taiwan. The sockets were Snap-On. People can argue otherwise until they turn blue in the face, but they are unmistakable in every detail, right down to the flank drive, the font of the number stampings, and even the date code.

The original Kobalt line was undoubtedly the best value in tools. For Christmas in 1998 I got a big socket set, a wrench set, and a screwdriver set. To this day I still have all but the wrench set and use them as part of my everyday lineup. They were great tools and had they remained under Williams contract, my toolbox would look drastically different today.

That being said, I wasn't overly crazy about the ratchets. They were 36 tooth (a course count by today's standards), not overly smooth, and had a fairly rough back drag. They're kinda like an old F-150 with a 300 6 Cylinder, durable and dependable, but not really a performance machine.

When the original 5 year production contract ran out, the Snap-On association was over, but here are different theories as to why. One theory is that Snap-On was unhappy with the extent to which Lowe's had thrown their name around as evidenced by the claims on the packaging and in advertising often showing Kobalt besting all but Snap-On in various tests and the consumer perception that Kobalt was simply Snap-On brands at a cheaper price (even if it was largely true).

The other popular theory is that Lowe's walked away from the partnership simply because of money. You will hear that Snap-On wanted much more money the second time around, and you will also hear conspiracy theories that Lowe's planned a bait and switch from the start and always intended to go with a cheaper OEM in the 2nd generation. I don't know the truth and without testimony from an upper management type from the time, we'll probably never know the official account, but the truth is probably somewhere in between.

In any event, 2003 saw the 2nd generation production go to Danaher. With the Snap-On association gone and a noticeable drop in overall quality, Kobalt quietly faded into the realm of nothing special. These days with the Rotar made ratchets and nearly the entire line imported by JS Products, Kobalt has become an afterthought to most tool enthusiast.

[Conductor562]

Channelock is still available at my Lowes.

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Mine too, but the offering has dwindled to 4 or 5 models rather than a full line.

Knipex is gone completely though. The only good to come of it is that I got the $50 mini-bolt cutters for a rediculous $15 on clearance when it happened. If I could only own 1 pair of cutting pliers those would be it.

Wouldn't take $150 for them if I couldn't get another pair

http://www.pmmag.com/ext/resources/PM/2015/May/products/PM0515_Prod_Knipex.jpg?1433356365

[BMack37]

This isn't my first Kobalt conversation. Yes, those ratchets, like about all of the first generation Kobalt tools made between 1998 and late 2002-ish, were labeled "J.H. Williams: A Division of Snap-On" or something to that effect. Now here's how that shook out in reality.

Lowe's, seeking a bonafide house brand of tools to compete in the premium homeowner mechanics tools market, didn't do a lot of searching for an OEM. They pretty much had Snap-On in mind from the start. They wanted to make a big entrance into the market and knew that a known association with Snap-On would provide just that. Snap-On was willing to provide that, though somewhat indirectly through their J.H. Williams industrial brand.

While the J.H. Williams Div. was the contract holder, Snap-On supplied Kobalt from across their existing product lines. Much of the hard line stuff (including the ratchets) was actually sourced from the Blue Point mechanics line rather than Williams. To this day you can buy an "evolved" form of these ratchets from Blue Point, though they have more teeth and are made in Taiwan. The sockets were Snap-On. People can argue otherwise until they turn blue in the face, but they are unmistakable in every detail, right down to the flank drive, the font of the number stampings, and even the date code.

The original Kobalt line was undoubtedly the best value in tools. For Christmas in 1998 I got a big socket set, a wrench set, and a screwdriver set. To this day I still have all but the wrench set and use them as part of my everyday lineup. They were great tools and had they remained under Williams contract, my toolbox would look drastically different today.

That being said, I wasn't overly crazy about the ratchets. They were 36 tooth (a course count by today's standards), not overly smooth, and had a fairly rough back drag. They're kinda like an old F-150 with a 300 6 Cylinder, durable and dependable, but not really a performance machine.

When the original 5 year production contract ran out, the Snap-On association was over, but here are different theories as to why. One theory is that Snap-On was unhappy with the extent to which Lowe's had thrown their name around as evidenced by the claims on the packaging and in advertising often showing Kobalt besting all but Snap-On in various tests and the consumer perception that Kobalt was simply Snap-On brands at a cheaper price (even if it was largely true).

The other popular theory is that Lowe's walked away from the partnership simply because of money. You will hear that Snap-On wanted much more money the second time around, and you will also hear conspiracy theories that Lowe's planned a bait and switch from the start and always intended to go with a cheaper OEM in the 2nd generation. I don't know the truth and without testimony from an upper management type from the time, we'll probably never know the official account, but the truth is probably somewhere in between.

In any event, 2003 saw the 2nd generation production go to Danaher. With the Snap-On association gone and a noticeable drop in overall quality, Kobalt quietly faded into the realm of nothing special. These days with the Rotar made ratchets and nearly the entire line imported by JS Products, Kobalt has become an afterthought to most tool enthusiast.

 

I'm not saying any of this is wrong(because I do NOT think you are wrong) but you can still buy the Williams ratchet of the same design also. These particular Blue Point and Williams ratchets are identical and are both made in Taiwan...that being said, neither is the same quality as the original Kobalt(Which was made in the US).

 

I've heard the current Taiwan Kobalt is made by Gearwrench, it's actually very nice quality...you just need to be careful to not get the Chinese Kobalt sockets, the Chinese sockets don't have a COO stamped on the socket, the Taiwan says "Taiwan" on the side. Right now they're a steal at 50% off, IMO...but again, as we both know it's not NEARLY as nice as the original Kobalt sets.

[Conductor562]

The current Kobalt line isn't made by Danaher's Gearwrench. It is sourced through a company called JS Products out of Las Vegas.

They're a huge importer and also own the Steelman name. They're also the source of most damn near all the Taiwan made bit sockets being sold by professional brands including Carlyle and even Mac. At the tool shows I've been to JSP always has one of the biggest booths.

[BMack37]

The current Kobalt line isn't made by Danaher's Gearwrench. It is sourced through a company called JS Products out of Las Vegas.

They're a huge importer and also own the Steelman name. They're also the source of most damn near all the Taiwan made bit sockets being sold by professional brands including Carlyle and even Mac. At the tool shows I've been to JSP always has one of the biggest booths.

 

Thanks for this info, I guess people just assumed it was Gearwrench based on the previous relationship with Danaher.

 

What's your preferred ratchet/socket right now? As far as value(Best product for the money, not just cheapest usable set)

[Conductor562]

Thanks for this info, I guess people just assumed it was Gearwrench based on the previous relationship with Danaher.

What's your preferred ratchet/socket right now? As far as value(Best product for the money, not just cheapest usable set)

I believe the 90T Mac Axis Series ratchets are the nicest on the market, but they aren't a "value" type item.

I'm a Proto guy. I have a ton of tools and 75% of them are Proto. It depends heavily on the particular item, but you really can't go wrong with any of the industrial brands. In most cases you're getting truck quality tools at a fraction of the price. I like a lot of Blackhawk stuff and here recently I've had my eye on Bonney tools.

I have a favorite everything, it just depends on the tool.

[BMack37]

Thanks, love to hear people who actually know their stuff's opinion. Sorry for taking the thread slightly off topic.

[figureitout]

If Home Depot had a greeter that punched me in the face every time I walked in the front door, I'd still prefer Home Depot to Lowe's. I ONLY buy items at Lowe's if they are at least 50% off.

Me too.

My family and I preferred and recommended to others Lowe's for many years. Slowly we've all switched and that really says something considering we had a strong bias towards Lowe's.

Every store is managed differently but I believe HD has a strong focus on hiring those knowledgeable in the trades, and this is borne out through experience. The guys seem happier to help, and many will truly engage in problem solving with you. This has been my experience at multiple locations, so there's something there at a corporate level.

Lowe's simply pisses me off when I go in there. Three times I've been hassled as a suspected shoplifter. I'm in my mid-thirties, own a business and dress and conduct myself accordingly. Little things too, they lock power tools up against the wall, so there's no getting a feel for the ergonomics. When they have clearance items with very significant issues, like three wrenches missing from a ten piece set, you'll see discounts of 5-10%. They don't carry competing brands to the house brand in many categories, and the house brand is utter garbage. HD pushes Husky, sure, but it's generally decent and you'll find the Channellock, Klein, or whatever the case may be right alongside it.

Lowe's has the mylowes card, which I've depended on to save my receipt and been let down. If you forget to present the card first, most cashiers will not apply it, so you must save the receipt. I do not have this issue with the HD system, it works without fail.

I wish I had a link to it, but I recently read an excerpt from a talk a Lowe's executive gave at a shareholders meeting. In it, he didn't mince words when he assured the audience that Lowe's would sell ANYTHING (not my emphasis), to make a profit, disregard for quality was in the subtext.

I'm trying to bring this response to a close but I could go on and on. HD is far from perfect but of the two major big box stores it's the clear winner for a professional, hardcore DIY'er, and saavy shopper.

In fairness, Lowe's has a better selection and better inventory levels of hardware than HD, but if it's hardware I'm after a big box is my last stop, I'll take a mom and pop selection any day, which I've only recently discovered to generally have a vast selection of hardware.

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[DamianD]

I just think the HD staff near me are more knowledgable than the staff at my local Lowes.  And the HD layout is wayyy better than any lowes ive ever been in. Can never seem to find what im looking for as easily.  

[Nordraw]

But it sure is nice to have a choice isn't it? Sometimes one has something and the other doesn't so I am just glad to have a choice. I have a "Do it Best" near me too and that is another option. 

[Justin Hernandez]

I don't like any of Lowe's brands, the store is to clean, theres nobody there its like a ghost town. Its more for women I think. Instead of having a big tool aisle they have like 20 tiny bookcases..lol I really don't know how they make any money the shelves are full and even on the weekend its not busy.

[JimboS1ice]

I don't like any of Lowe's brands, the store is to clean, theres nobody there its like a ghost town. Its more for women I think. Instead of having a big tool aisle they have like 20 tiny bookcases..lol I really don't know how they make any money the shelves are full and even on the weekend its not busy.

Yea I agree I bought some lowes generic tack cloth and it was barely sticky compared to HDs HDX brand.

Jimbo

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[Justin Hernandez]

Yea I agree I bought some lowes generic tack cloth and it was barely sticky compared to HDs HDX brand.

Jimbo

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HD has recently got rid of HDX and is now using Everbilt which I don't understand. For example if you buy a bag of copper fittings the bag is branded Everbilt but the copper is stamped with Nibco brand. Everything that is Everbilt is two companies, is that even legal..lol

[JimboS1ice]

HD has recently got rid of HDX and is now using Everbilt which I don't understand. For example if you buy a bag of copper fittings the bag is branded Everbilt but the copper is stamped with Nibco brand. Everything that is Everbilt is two companies, is that even legal..lol

they must be clearing out their HDX stock then I haven't seen much in the everbilt brand yet.

Jimbo

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[Justin Hernandez]

they must be clearing out their HDX stock then I haven't seen much in the everbilt brand yet.

Jimbo

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It seems like the whole store is Everbilt here there was only a little bit of HDX stuff back in day. They might start putting the Everbilt name on Dewalt tools soon..lol

[JimboS1ice]

It seems like the whole store is Everbilt here there was only a little bit of HDX stuff back in day. They might start putting the Everbilt name on Dewalt tools soon..lol

My closest HD is always behind the other ones for whatever reason lol so in a year maybe they'll be where they are supposed to be now.

Jimbo

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[Justin Hernandez]

My closest HD is always behind the other ones for whatever reason lol so in a year maybe they'll be where they are supposed to be now.

Jimbo

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Haha, there just being lazy

[RickyMcGrath]

I honestly prefer Lowes stores. Mostly because of their double points on fuel rewards and availability of coupons online.

I have also developed a great relationship with my closest store and they'll bend over backwards for me. I recently asked for one of their displays when they change their planogram and as soon as they change it, it's mine. [emoji16]

[Justin Hernandez]

I honestly prefer Lowes stores. Mostly because of their double points on fuel rewards and availability of coupons online.

I have also developed a great relationship with my closest store and they'll bend over backwards for me. I recently asked for one of their displays when they change their planogram and as soon as they change it, it's mine. [emoji16]

Thats awesome!

[RickyMcGrath]

I got it faster than I thought.

[Scoszko]

For consumables (wood, hardware, etc.), they are about the same for me. When it comes to tools I have found that HD has a better selection and price. I often go to both (they are across the street from each other by me) and have found if I buy a hand tool at Lowes, I usually end up returning it cause I came across a comparable model in HD that was cheaper. They weren't "identical" cause of a part number change, so the price match doesn't work.