School a n00b: Batteries

[n00b]

Making my weekend run to Teh Depot yesterday and noticed within their wall 'o batteries was a single Milwaukee 18V brick of a NiCad battery.  Just the one.  Amongst all the Li-ions.

 

So, I'm a n00b.  I'm a curious n00b.  Please satiate my curiosity.

 

When did NiCads come into existance?

 

When did Li-ions show-up on the scene?

 

Was their a huge BluRay vs HD-DVD, Coke vs Pepsi battle that ensued?

 

Were NiCads expected to be phased out completely?

 

All I know of are Li-ion batteries, I want the "back in my day AND when I was your age!!1!" stories.

 

The investment in a product/platform becomes a sketchy proposition with the possibility of it becoming obsolete within a short period of time...after a long period I get, advancements in technology and what not. 

 

Just that.

 

Thanks.

[Jack Tibbetts]

Ni cads don't like the cold and just don't have the performance that li-ions do

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bremon]

There was no Bluray vs HDDVD battle. It was more like VHS to DVD, or carriages to cars. One was clearly superior and the market transitioned.

[comp56]

cordless tools took a huge step forward when the li-ion batteries came along......nicad were power limited, lost charge over time, had a bad charge memory, like above mentioned don't like cold, run times were weak at best

wet cell nicad have been around for 100+yrs so they did the job for some time....

[DR99]

There was a few years when Lithium ion was kinda iffy when it first cam out. The first cells and platforms had some issues. Now 3/4 generations in they are pretty rock solid if your tool brand is using semi decent cells. Also early lithium packs had poor cold weather performance that has been eliminated for awhile now. Like everyone mentioned there was no huge battle of battery types it was just people moving up as battery technology got better. ProToolNut explained it in pretty good detail.

[Maxwell Tyler Ray]

Some great explanations here!!

I'd like the add a performance characteristics of li-ion vs nicad

A fully charged nicad once used will lose output performance as it loses capacity per charge.

Where a li-ion holds a higher output through the discharge cycle

Data in this graph isn't specific..jus loosely show characteristics of how li-ion performs through a discharge cycle

[n00b]

The original rechargable battery was NICAD. The idea was a battery that was rechargable so that you didn't have to keep replacing your alkaline cells, those are your Energizers and Duracell's, for those who are not in the know. The problem was, a NICAD needed to be drained all the way before it was charged back up, and so many people didn't know about this. NICADS have a memory effect, if you drain them half way and then put them back on the charger, they remember that spot that they were in. Next thing you know your battery isn't lasting as long as it once did on a charge. And then eventually the battery dies for good, never to be reborn again.

 

Then there are those who were knowledgable about the batteries, and they drained them down all the time. The batteries did last longer, but they still only lasted so many charges until the battery was shot for good. Because of the poor memory effect of these batteries, they were replaced by NMH. Nikel Metal Hydrate batteries were said to be of a major improvement, as they claimed that they no longer had the memory effect issue, and that they would last a lot longer. All they did is some battery restructuring, but they failed, IMO, to really solve the problem.

 

The NMH batteries seemed like they were an improvement at first, but you still had to drain the batteries all the way before you could charge them up again. And just like with the NICADS, after so many charges, the batteries started to loose some of their oompth that they once had. Eventually, just like the NICAD, the NMH didn't want to take a charge anymore. Well, by this time they came out with, what I call, NMH battery regeneration technology. When you activated the regeneration mode on some smart chargers, the charger would drain the batteries all the way down, charge them all the way back up, then burn them all the way down again, and charge them up again once more.

 

This process helped to restore the batteries ability to hold a charge. Unfortunately, what they never told us was, once a NMH battery gets torwards the end of its life, it doesn't matter if you try to regernate it or not, the battery has gone bad, it simply can not be manipulated, even by a smart charger. And then instead of that yellow light or steady red light, you get flashing red lights to indicate the battery has gone bad, please replace. So as you can see, NMH batteries were not much of an improvement over NICADS, and this is why for the most part, most companies have abandened the technology.

 

Lithium batteries have actually gone through 3 generations, they've been around for the past 15 years. IMO, Lithium batteries have been, and are the true replacement to the older rechargable batteries. Lithiums batteries do not have a memory effect, as long as you keep the batteries charged. With these batteries, you do not burn them down all the way, and if you do, make sure you charge them immedietly. What a lithium battery has in common with a lead acid battery, such as a car battery, is that they both will go bad if left dead for too long. In a lead acid battery, the plates will sulfate, and once that happens its dead for life.

 

Lithium batteries are very simular in that if kept dead for too long, you might as well throw them away. However, most people today are smart about their electronics and they always keep their lithium cell's charged. Lithium's don't like to be charged at 100% all the time either. When putting a lithium battery in storage, its always best to store them at 50% to 70% charged, this extends the life of the battery. And unlike the older battery types that would loose their charge after a month, lithium cell's will retain their charge 3 years into the future before you need to recharge them again.

 

Lithiums are a much more reliable battery technology, they run longer, run cooler, require less time to charge, and can last many more charges over previous battery types. Originaly you had Lithium in the first generation, then the second generation brought us Lithium Ion, a marginable improvement. And I think we got now Lithium Hydroxide, or something of the like. Most electronic devies use lithium ion batteries. If you come across a company that is selling a piece of equipment using the old standard NMH, steer away.

 

This is an attempt by a company trying to save money. They know the NMH batteries are no good, but they don't care, as long as they can squeese a little bit more money out of you, thats all they care about. If you are going to buy something with a rechargable battery setup, make sure its lithium ion! At this point in time, lithium battery technology is the best there is. I had a computer mouse, the Logitech MX1000 wireless lazer mouse. That thing used an internal built in lithium rechargable battery. It lasted me 7-years of heavy gaming use before its charge only lasted 1 day per charge. Thats how good lithium is.

 

And there is the history of rechargable battery technology as best as I could remember it. Hope this helps

Holy balls.  Awesome response.  Thanks!

[Charles Harris]

If we really wanted max performance out our tools we would use Lipo batteries.

This 5.0ah 5s (18v nominal) Lipo has a rating of 65c constant and 130c burst. That's 325amps continuous and bursts of up to 650amps.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__45144__Turnigy_nano_tech_A_SPEC_G2_5000mah_5S_65_130C_Lipo_Pack.html

The best Li-Ions are rated at 25amp draw for comparison. So a 2p pack like our 4 and 5 ah tools are capable of delivering ~50 amps.

The only problem is the Lipos are much more dangerous to charge. They need to be balanced every charge. The Lipo cells don't like vibration, and impacts.

Li-Ions are a great match for our tools. They are easy to maintain and have a good balance of capacity and weight.

[Maxwell Tyler Ray]

If we really wanted max performance out our tools we would use Lipo batteries.

This 5.0ah 5s (18v nominal) Lipo has a rating of 65c constant and 130c burst. That's 325amps continuous and bursts of up to 650amps. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__45144__Turnigy_nano_tech_A_SPEC_G2_5000mah_5S_65_130C_Lipo_Pack.html

The best Li-Ions are rated at 25amp draw for comparison. So a 2p pack like our 4 and 5 ah tools are capable of delivering ~50 amps.

The only problem is the Lipos are much more dangerous to charge. They need to be balanced every charge. The Lipo cells don't like vibration, and impacts.

Li-Ions are a great match for our tools. They are easy to maintain and have a good balance of capacity and weight.

They are definitely strong performing battery..I'm into RC cars and lipos..charging them properly and keeping them from damage would be challenging to say the least!!

[Nalu Rash]

The original rechargable battery was NICAD. The idea was a battery that was rechargable so that you didn't have to keep replacing your alkaline cells, those are your Energizers and Duracell's, for those who are not in the know. The problem was, a NICAD needed to be drained all the way before it was charged back up, and so many people didn't know about this. NICADS have a memory effect, if you drain them half way and then put them back on the charger, they remember that spot that they were in. Next thing you know your battery isn't lasting as long as it once did on a charge. And then eventually the battery dies for good, never to be reborn again.

 

Then there are those who were knowledgable about the batteries, and they drained them down all the time. The batteries did last longer, but they still only lasted so many charges until the battery was shot for good. Because of the poor memory effect of these batteries, they were replaced by NMH. Nikel Metal Hydrate batteries were said to be of a major improvement, as they claimed that they no longer had the memory effect issue, and that they would last a lot longer. All they did is some battery restructuring, but they failed, IMO, to really solve the problem.

 

The NMH batteries seemed like they were an improvement at first, but you still had to drain the batteries all the way before you could charge them up again. And just like with the NICADS, after so many charges, the batteries started to loose some of their oompth that they once had. Eventually, just like the NICAD, the NMH didn't want to take a charge anymore. Well, by this time they came out with, what I call, NMH battery regeneration technology. When you activated the regeneration mode on some smart chargers, the charger would drain the batteries all the way down, charge them all the way back up, then burn them all the way down again, and charge them up again once more.

 

This process helped to restore the batteries ability to hold a charge. Unfortunately, what they never told us was, once a NMH battery gets torwards the end of its life, it doesn't matter if you try to regernate it or not, the battery has gone bad, it simply can not be manipulated, even by a smart charger. And then instead of that yellow light or steady red light, you get flashing red lights to indicate the battery has gone bad, please replace. So as you can see, NMH batteries were not much of an improvement over NICADS, and this is why for the most part, most companies have abandened the technology.

 

Lithium batteries have actually gone through 3 generations, they've been around for the past 15 years. IMO, Lithium batteries have been, and are the true replacement to the older rechargable batteries. Lithiums batteries do not have a memory effect, as long as you keep the batteries charged. With these batteries, you do not burn them down all the way, and if you do, make sure you charge them immedietly. What a lithium battery has in common with a lead acid battery, such as a car battery, is that they both will go bad if left dead for too long. In a lead acid battery, the plates will sulfate, and once that happens its dead for life.

 

Lithium batteries are very simular in that if kept dead for too long, you might as well throw them away. However, most people today are smart about their electronics and they always keep their lithium cell's charged. Lithium's don't like to be charged at 100% all the time either. When putting a lithium battery in storage, its always best to store them at 50% to 70% charged, this extends the life of the battery. And unlike the older battery types that would loose their charge after a month, lithium cell's will retain their charge 3 years into the future before you need to recharge them again.

 

Lithiums are a much more reliable battery technology, they run longer, run cooler, require less time to charge, and can last many more charges over previous battery types. Originaly you had Lithium in the first generation, then the second generation brought us Lithium Ion, a marginable improvement. And I think we got now Lithium Hydroxide, or something of the like. Most electronic devies use lithium ion batteries. If you come across a company that is selling a piece of equipment using the old standard NMH, steer away.

 

This is an attempt by a company trying to save money. They know the NMH batteries are no good, but they don't care, as long as they can squeese a little bit more money out of you, thats all they care about. If you are going to buy something with a rechargable battery setup, make sure its lithium ion! At this point in time, lithium battery technology is the best there is. I had a computer mouse, the Logitech MX1000 wireless lazer mouse. That thing used an internal built in lithium rechargable battery. It lasted me 7-years of heavy gaming use before its charge only lasted 1 day per charge. Thats how good lithium is.

 

And there is the history of rechargable battery technology as best as I could remember it. Hope this helps

Holy Ka Moly Proto! What a great response

[Nalu Rash]

This was a very cool Forum Thread n00b! Thanks for starting this. I've only had a very basic knowledge of batteries. All I knew was that Lithium Ion is newer than Ni-Cad and that meant it was better. There are some very informative responses here that I'm sure will clear thing's up for the rest of the crew

[Nalu Rash]

Some great explanations here!!

I'd like the add a performance characteristics of li-ion vs nicad

A fully charged nicad once used will lose output performance as it loses capacity per charge.

Where a li-ion holds a higher output through the discharge cycle

Data in this graph isn't specific..jus loosely show characteristics of how li-ion performs through a discharge cycle

 

Cool chart. I believe this is referring to Li-Po batteries? Where can I find this chart for Ni-Cad and Li-Ion

[Nalu Rash]

Just because a battery is newer, doesn't mean that its necessarily better. What you recently heard about LIPO batteries, clearly shows that they would not be a good battery to use for power tools. Records show these batteries catching on fire, and otehr wildly things that we wish not to happen to our person. Another example is vehicle AGM batteries, also known as a gell sell. Those batteries can not be charged by a regular 12v battery charger, and even with the proper charger, lifespan of these batteries is scatchy at best. But you are right, currently the LI-ION batteries are top grade for most purpos's.

It's people like you that make this forum great. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us man. I'd give a like but used it all up already.

[Maxwell Tyler Ray]

Cool chart. I believe this is referring to Li-Po batteries? Where can I find this chart for Ni-Cad and Li-Ion

The chart for li-ion would be similar to the above chart for a li-po battery.

And I'll put the chart for nicad into words......suckssss ballssss!!

End of the day Li-ion is top of the line currently and once something better comes to the market we will be high on the list to know about!!

And we all know if it's better than the previous Mikwaukee will do their magic and all our wallets will fling open!!!

[Charles Harris]

I don't understand why LiFe batteries haven't been used more. Dewalt used them in the 36, 28, and 18 volt lithium batteries.

http://www.a123systems.com/Collateral/Documents/English-US/A123%20Systems%20ANR26650%20Data%20Sheet.pdf

They are as safe to charge as regular Li-Ions, but can be charged in 12min within factory specs. The 2.5 ah cells are rated at 70 amp discharge. I have cut up several of the DeWalt 36v packs to source the cells. I use these for my RC airplanes and Helicopters. I've even mounted them on support equipment like helicopter starters. I have abused these cells and the only way I have been able to kill one is discharge it to far. I tested the limits of the cells before trusting them in my airplane. I have even zip charged them without damage. (Connect the cell directly to a 12v car battery. Charges in less than a min)

There are a couple downsides to the A123 LiFe's. They are 3.3v nominal vs the 3.7 Li-Ion. They hold there voltage crazy flat during the discharge. This is good and bad. It's good that they are able to hold their voltage under crazy loads but it makes it all but impossible to have an accurate fuel gauge. The charger needs to balance the pack or they can get off over time.

How would you feel about having a 2.5ah battery that could be charged in 12 min?

The charger I have will graph discharge and charge cycles. This graph is of a 2s A123 LiFe pack I built from a 36v Dewalt pack. (4.6amp discharge)

[Nalu Rash]

Dang you all are so knowledgeable about batteries.

 

Thought I'd share this video for laugh's:

[Charles Harris]

Here is a couple cool videos showing what the A123 LiFe's can do.

[DR99]

There was a lawsuit about patent infringement on the A123 cells. Dewalt and A123 were sued but the college that came up with that concept. Its on google if you want to know more.

[Charles Harris]

There was a lawsuit about patent infringement on the A123 cells. Dewalt and A123 were sued but the college that came up with that concept. Its on google if you want to know more.

I know the black & decker VPX line was discontinued as a result of the lawsuit. Walmart clearance all the VPX tools. I drove to every Walmart in the area and ended up with 40+ of the batteries. I used them for all kinds of projects. Dewalt continued to sell the 36v packs after the lawsuit. Do you know how Dewalt was affected?

Leave it to lawyers to ruin a good thing. This could be the reason we don't have LiFe powered tools today.

[Charles Harris]

Yeah, were battery nuts, shocking isn't it?

My wife says I'm just a nut in general.

[DR99]

Here is some info about the 36v batteries lawsuit. http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2006-09-20/business/0609200257_1_lithium-ion-batteries-black-decker-two-patents

[kornomaniac]

Li-ion also has a negative point compared to older nicad/ nihms.

Even if you charge/ discharge/ store your li ion batts in the PERFECT way. A li ion battery will always age by itself. This could be as less as 10 procent a year for someone who treats them perfect.. And a lot more for someone who doesn't know how to use em.

This is a known fact for all lithium cells in use at this moment.

If you used/ stored/ charged/ discharged your nicad batteries perfectly they will have a longer lifetime then a li ion battery.

And were not talking the maximum amount of charge cycles here. Lithium batts have more charge cycles.

[Bremon]

Pretty minor negative in my books, especially if you actually use your batteries. We still have one or two NiCad Dewalts at work. They are hot garbage and don't last a morning.

[kornomaniac]

Yeah of course ! A negative that doesn't add up compared to all positives of course

Just stating it as a fact for completeness of information

Its a minor complaint for tool sellers. You do occasionally get the remark ' my old nicads where still perfect after 10 years and these new li-ions are already losing charge and they're only 5 years old !!! "

[Turner85]

So can someone enlighten me in few words as possible as I get confused or forget the start of a long post by the time I reach the end. I've dewalt 18v (20v in U.S) should I charge once the battery is indicating one bar and store at full charge till the next use.