wingless' New Plumbing 1963 House

[wingless]

Our 1963 rental house had a long term tenant who revealed after leaving that the drains were always problematic.

 

We scoped the drains and discovered that the cast iron was totally shot, w/ several holes and perforations along the length.

 

Our plan was already a major remodel, so we removed / discarded the tile floor, removed / discarded the tub, bathroom walls and shared kitchen wall. (Rubble is a royal butt pain to discard.)

 

The kitchen cabinets were almost new, but didn't work w/ our new layout, so they were removed and sold.

 

A company was brought in to cut the slab, remove and replace the cast iron drain and vent stacks w/ PVC. Exterior to the house was already PVC, so they joined to that exterior PVC. The interior now has new 4" Schedule 40 drain under the slab, plus a pair of 3" vent stacks through the roof in the laundry room and in the kitchen / bathroom, upgrading from the prior 2" laundry vent stack.

 

The future plan is to change the laundry room into a second bathroom. That will happen when we change the exterior car port into a third bedroom, over a year from now.

 

The company that cut the slab and replaced the drain, also cut through several buried electrical conduits, killing those circuits. One reason I hate contractors is they always have their stories handy in their back pockets. The story they used here was "thank god my guy didn't get killed", when all I was thinking was how am I going to fix my wiring.

 

Fortunately I kick butt at home wiring and was able to remove stuff that isn't required anymore and redo / upgrade the killed circuits that are being retained.

 

There was confusion about the tub drain location. The bathroom is wider than the tub. They put the drain in the same spot as for the prior tub, but my daughter wanted it biased against the other wall, so I needed to relocate the drain position.

 

For some reason there is LOTS of online information about plumbing, but I was unable to find anywhere what is the rough in drain distance from the wall. I assembled the drain to the tub, used my plumb bob and discovered that the vertical tub drain position is 3" from the rough wall. I used my 4½" small angle grinder w/ a masonry cutting wheel, followed by my demolition hammer to cut back the floor slab for the new tub drain location.

 

The 2" PVC trap was solvent bonded at the correct location, working deep under the flooring. It came out great.

 

A skim coat of repair mortar was also applied around the toilet and tub drains to permit tiling on reasonably smooth masonry instead of rough concrete and bare sand.

 

The company didn't follow my instructions to remove / discard the under slab hot and cold copper pipes that were feeding across the kitchen to the laundry room, so I cut off those pipes flush w/ the floor. The new plan is for these to route through the attic, to permit future repair, if it is ever required. I routed the new pipes across the attic.

 

Images show four copper pipes extending up from the slab within the wall. These are the incoming supply, cold out to the exterior wall hose bib, plus unused hot and cold to the laundry room. Only the incoming supply and the hose bib pipes are used now.

 

This topic shows my tankless water heater installation. I put this into the closet next to the bathroom to free up space in the laundry room, for when that is changed to a full bathroom.

 

The supply plumbing is all Type L 3/4" copper pipe w/ lead free solder + flux. That 3/4 pipe necks down to 1/2" Type L at the taps for the faucets and shower. There are anti hammer devices near all the taps. The pipes are secured along the length w/ appropriate pipe supports. 

 

The top horizontal copper pipe in the image is the water heater over pressure relief drain. That is why it slopes downhill towards the exterior wall, per the local requirements.

 

The opening where the tub drain is connected from the kitchen was intentionally plumbed to NOT have a supply pipe crossing the opening, forcing working around the pipe when connecting the drain, maintaining a gap for my body to fit during that required access.

 

The washing machine hose shown in the images is a temporary bypass for the future under sink water filter to keep the tankless water heater sensor wheel clean and operational.

 

All of the hot water pipes will have snap on foam insulation along the length.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wingless]

Additional images...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eric - TIA]

Wow that is a big job and thanks for sharing.  I have to cut out my pipe in my basement floor and have been putting that off, seems like a big job.

 

I hear you about the contractors.  I have had some who have been great and others i would not recommend to my worst enemy. As you did, I ended up doing a lot of my house myself and still have a long way to go.  You did an awesome job, everything looks nice and clean.

 

Are you allowed to use Propex in FL?  I am in Illinois and certain areas we can.  My area I can't.  Just curious to see how things are different around the country.

[wingless]

On 1/27/2021 at 8:59 AM, Eric - TIA said:

Are you allowed to use Propex in FL?  I am in Illinois and certain areas we can.  My area I can't.  Just curious to see how things are different around the country.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

LOTS of planning. I like copper. It permits dry fit assembly before soldering to get the layout correct.

 

There is no Propex. The supply is all soldered Type L copper. The drains are all solvent bonded Schedule 40 PVC.

 

The dangling black coil in the image is a temporary washing machine hose to complete the circuit until the tankless heater water filter may be installed under the kitchen sink. That is being installed to protect the tankless water flow sensor.

 

Edit: That under sink filter idea was retired and the fittings for that filter were replaced w/ a straight pipe connection.

 

[Eric - TIA]

Looking nice.  I have a boiler in my house so I have a ton of copper running throughout the house.

[wingless]

On 1/27/2021 at 12:20 AM, wingless said:

Our 1963 rental house had a long term tenant who revealed after leaving that the drains were always problematic.

 

A company was brought in to cut the slab, remove and replace the cast iron drain and vent stacks w/ PVC. Exterior to the house was already PVC, so they joined to that exterior PVC. The interior now has new 4" Schedule 40 drain under the slab, plus a pair of 3" vent stacks through the roof in the laundry room and in the kitchen / bathroom, upgrading from the prior 2" laundry vent stack.

 

 

 

The bathroom was completed, the kitchen cabinets installed and the countertop company installed new quartz w/ a sink so I could finally install the disposal and faucet.

 

Unfortunately the "professional" plumber that cut the slab and replaced the drains, not only installed the bathroom vanity drain too low, they also put the kitchen drain too high, both by a lot.

 

The only solution was to remove the bathroom vanity, cut the wall and transpose the drains, making the kitchen lower and the bathroom higher. It was impossible to service from the kitchen side w/o destroying the brand new countertop and removing the cabinets.

 

The kitchen drains were "cheated" as much as possible because even with this fix it is still higher than I wanted / needed, making the disposal drain horizontal to the tee, instead of attaining the correct slope. It works okay.

 

A complete fix would have been to dismantle the new stack, going up through the roof, but that would have been a VERY extensive rework, removing lots of the bathroom wall and playing w/ the roof flashing, just to improve / correct the slope from the disposal (not gonna happen).

 

All was implemented, the bathroom wall replaced, patched and painted.

 

FWIW, as is shown in the images, my "old school" preference is chrome plated brass and bronze supplies and drains, instead of plastic. As part of that preference, I discarded the plastic drain tube that came w/ the disposal, purchased a chrome plated brass tube and discovered the lip flange on the disposal end was too large, so I filed it smaller. I also found a chrome plated bronze tee fitting online for this drain setup.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eric - TIA]

Wow sounds like a pain.  I always feel like its something.  Turned out looking great.  I am in the process or messing with my whole house water system.  My heater is going so thinking about a tankless but not sure.  I also need a whole house water filtration system.  Looks like I will be doing a lot of plumbing soon.

[wingless]

The greatest issue for me is I am lacking in the most important plumbing trait. I don't have a huge butt crack, that is critically important to display for all those in the area.

 

The tankless is a great option, but the system must be sized to work w/ the incoming water temperature. Down here in southern Florida, the incoming water temperature never drops below 70°F. Probably closer to high 40's for the worst case in Chicago.

 

My overkill tankless solution has two 40A / 240VAC feeds, 18kW and I could have possibly gone one size smaller. For Chicago it might be required to go w/ three 40A / 240VAC feeds, perhaps even w/ multiple heaters.

 

If going that route don't forget the shutoffs and over pressure / temperature kit.

[Eric - TIA]

Sweet thanks for the information.  This is new to me.  Are you happy with the Rinkmo?  Agree, I have to work on my butt crack also so my wife then can believe I can do the work since I would have the main trait also.

[wingless]

Functionally the device has been fine.

 

From the previously linked topic:

 

The wiring design was a big disappointment. The 18kW heater has a single 3/4” wiring knock out w/ double flats and includes an appropriate cable clamp. My installation within an interior closet led me to not want to place jacketed NM-B cable so it exists within the living space. My solution was to instead use a 3/4” Schedule 40 conduit and 90° elbow. The problem is that 3/4” conduit is too small for four 8 AWG stranded conductors (with two ground wires). The only wiring option is 8/2 NM-B, unless using individual conductors in conduit, like THHN, because there is no 8/4 NB-B wire available.

 

A much better wiring solution would be to have a rear entry, through the wall. That was not possible for me to implement, if I were inclined to modify this UL-approved enclosure, because the only space available for placement of this hole is obstructed by a  horizontal mounting stud. If the wire were permitted to enter from the rear, then there would be no wiring exposure to the living space and no issue w/ the 3/4" conduit being too small.

 

The wiring provision was a disappointment for those listed reasons.

 

Also disappointed in the documentation for this reason:

 

The valve kit I used permits periodic usage of a tankless water heater cleaning kit, to run vinegar through the tankless heater, to remove scale. There is zero mention of cleaning in the tankless manual or the web page.

[wingless]

4 hours ago, ScottLinoX said:

Renovations bring life to your home. Even a little remodeling helps you feel like you're in a new home. Just recently, I decided to turn my basement into a game room. I hadn't been down there in a while, and there was a lot of water when I went down there.

Welcome to the forum.

 

The subterranean rooms can present extra difficulties wrt to moisture and ground water. All those issues may be addressed / resolved w/ appropriate fixes. Typically those fixes should be implemented first, but some can be added afterwards w/o ripping out everything.

 

Why not create a new topic, including images, so all members may provide appropriate input?

[Altan]

On 11/5/2021 at 2:44 PM, wingless said:

The bathroom was completed, the kitchen cabinets installed and the countertop company installed new quartz w/ a sink so I could finally install the disposal and faucet.

 

Unfortunately the "professional" plumber that cut the slab and replaced the drains, not only installed the bathroom vanity drain too low, they also put the kitchen drain too high, both by a lot.

 

The only solution was to remove the bathroom vanity, cut the wall and transpose the drains, making the kitchen lower and the bathroom higher. It was impossible to service from the kitchen side w/o destroying the brand new countertop and removing the cabinets.

 

The kitchen drains were "cheated" as much as possible because even with this fix it is still higher than I wanted / needed, making the disposal drain horizontal to the tee, instead of attaining the correct slope. It works okay.

 

A complete fix would have been to dismantle the new stack, going up through the roof, but that would have been a VERY extensive rework, removing lots of the bathroom wall and playing w/ the roof flashing, just to improve / correct the slope from the disposal (not gonna happen).

 

All was implemented, the bathroom wall replaced, patched and painted.

 

FWIW, as is shown in the images, my "old school" preference is chrome plated brass and bronze supplies and drains, instead of plastic. As part of that preference, I discarded the plastic drain tube that came w/ the disposal, purchased a chrome plated brass tube and discovered the lip flange on the disposal end was too large, so I filed it smaller. I also found a chrome plated bronze tee fitting online for this drain setup.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have seen a special Circular Saw/Planer kind of thingy from Mafell and I was always thinking of having a similar one would be a good tool for plumbing specially when you run pipes within joists to create "U" shape grooves and a place to put a straight bracket on top. It would save a lot of time.

[Altan]

This is the Mafell groover that I was talking about.

 

 

[wingless]

That Mafell groover is very nice. It looks to be excessive for plumbing installation for home construction.

 

The tools I used when cutting for plumbing access was a drill and an OMT.

 

 

 

When I was installing the plumbing almost all of the 3/4" Type L copper supplies passed through studs using these insulator clamps.

 

 

Some of those pipes were restrained using these insulator clamps.

 

 

There were various versions of these nail plates used throughout to protect from damage when applying wall board or cabinets.

 

 

Everywhere that galvanized nail plates were near or possibly touching the copper supply, pipe insulation was placed between those dissimilar metals.

 

All of the 1½" or 2" Schedule 40 PVC drain plumbing was routed after OMT or drill cutting, or demolition hammer for concrete cutting.

 

 

[Altan]

4 hours ago, wingless said:

That Mafell groover is very nice. It looks to be excessive for plumbing installation for home construction.

 

The tools I used when cutting for plumbing access was a drill and an OMT.

 

 

 

When I was installing the plumbing almost all of the 3/4" Type L copper supplies passed through studs using these insulator clamps.

 

 

Some of those pipes were restrained using these insulator clamps.

 

 

There were various versions of these nail plates used throughout to protect from damage when applying wall board or cabinets.

 

 

Everywhere that galvanized nail plates were near or possibly touching the copper supply, pipe insulation was placed between those dissimilar metals.

 

All of the 1½" or 2" Schedule 40 PVC drain plumbing was routed after OMT or drill cutting, or demolition hammer for concrete cutting.

 

 

Yes, I know that, Mafell groover is expensive but for the one who always does only plumbing it would be OK, this is not exactly what I want, this tool makes square grooves for joiners and carpenters, I would like to have it for "U" shape grooves specially designed for pipes like 15mm, 22mm, 32mm which are used in UK.

 

We also use drill and multi tool for this purpose but I am not happy with the quality of that style. Never seen those white insulator clamps here in UK, I liked it, I will check it later. 

 

Yes, if any bracket or plate used with copper pipe is not copper or brass, you should use insulation in between, I have seen how it can make a hole in copper pipe by time. 

 

 

 

[Altan]

4 hours ago, wingless said:

That Mafell groover is very nice. It looks to be excessive for plumbing installation for home construction.

 

The tools I used when cutting for plumbing access was a drill and an OMT.

 

 

 

When I was installing the plumbing almost all of the 3/4" Type L copper supplies passed through studs using these insulator clamps.

 

 

Some of those pipes were restrained using these insulator clamps.

 

 

There were various versions of these nail plates used throughout to protect from damage when applying wall board or cabinets.

 

 

Everywhere that galvanized nail plates were near or possibly touching the copper supply, pipe insulation was placed between those dissimilar metals.

 

All of the 1½" or 2" Schedule 40 PVC drain plumbing was routed after OMT or drill cutting, or demolition hammer for concrete cutting.

 

 

The price of Mafell groover made me think of different things, a router to make grooves, unfortunately it seems there is no brand making a ball nose router bit with the diameter of 15mm, and the closest is 15.9mm which is basically 5/8" but 22mm and 32mm are available. I also found diamond coated router bits for granite and hard material like this (maybe concrete).

[Altan]

Here is the link

 

3Pcs Radius 12mm 12mm 15mm Round Vacuum Brazed Diamond Router Bits Milling Cutter Blade for Stone Marble Granite Ceramic Plastic, 1/2" Shank : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools

[Altan]

These are cheap bits but OK for this job

 

Tungsten Carbide Tipped (TCT) Core Box / Cove Router Bits (rennietool.co.uk)

[wingless]

What I don't like about using ball end bits is the tool velocity near the center is almost zero, making the cutting effectivity almost zero at that point.

[Altan]

31 minutes ago, wingless said:

What I don't like about using ball end bits is the tool velocity near the center is almost zero, making the cutting effectivity almost zero at that point.

I am not very good with routers, I will have to try it to see how it goes.