OldDominionDIYer Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 I am fully aware that all the companies use 12V instead of 10.8V and for the consumer it is transparent because they all do it, so there is no disparity therefore no confusion, but when one company choses to label the batteries differently (B&D Group) they are clearly doing it to deceive and no other reason. You say Milwaukee is the "worst offender" yet you fail too mention even one factual example of their bad behavior. I understand brand loyalty and I get it, but a little honesty wouldn't hurt. I readily admitted that Dewalt makes great tools, but it is a personal decision for me not to reward them for their blatant deceptive advertising, especially since they don't seem to have any real reason to do it, unless perhaps they actually do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 Really? You haven’t walked into a Home Depot and seen a wall of Milwaukee products that claim “50x life” “3x cuts” “4x blade life” etc. etc. etc. or all the comparisons on Milwaukee boxes comparing their tools to “competitors” where the comparison is made to old outdated brushed tools and not the top of the line teal or yellow equivalents? Or Milwaukee’s power numbers; ie isn’t the premium Makita drill stronger than the 2704 despite having around 10 ft lbs less torque? Compared to the competition Milwaukee is a marketing company that makes tools. I say that as someone who owns and uses a ton of Fuel gear. The extent of Dewalt’s lying is basically maximum voltage vs nominal voltage, and if 20 being a bigger number than 18 was enough to fool you, or 60 over 54 then it would behoove you to read the disclaimer on the box next to the asterisk. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babysaw Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 1 hour ago, OldDominionDIYer said: I am fully aware that all the companies use 12V instead of 10.8V and for the consumer it is transparent because they all do it, so there is no disparity therefore no confusion, but when one company choses to label the batteries differently (B&D Group) they are clearly doing it to deceive and no other reason. You say Milwaukee is the "worst offender" yet you fail too mention even one factual example of their bad behavior. I understand brand loyalty and I get it, but a little honesty wouldn't hurt. I readily admitted that Dewalt makes great tools, but it is a personal decision for me not to reward them for their blatant deceptive advertising, especially since they don't seem to have any real reason to do it, unless perhaps they actually do? Your worldview is saddening, and this post is a lot of projecting yourself onto others. I’ve been guilty of being a negative nancy of this forum before too. When I realized, I quietly saw myself out of the thread I jacked and let people enjoy their fun. Maybe you ought to chill and reflect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldDominionDIYer Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 I was not fooled as you may have surmised by my comments, and I am not being negative. The thread asks why or WHY NOT? does it not? I am simply expressing my experience and why I made my decisions and have not suggested that others should or should not consider these issues, but I did. I wasn't aware I was projecting a "worldview" I thought I was explaining why I chose a different brand than Dewalt, last time I checked that isn't a crime. No world views for me, I've traveled the entire world (except Antarctica) so if you would like some I would be happy to offer them in another venue, but this thread is about a person's personal decision to chose or not chose a particular brand of tools it really isn't important AT ALL. Therefore calm down and please stop trying the attach labels and bully me my opinion it will not change. Any reasonable objective reader can see I provided information (all completely fact based) that led me to spend my money elsewhere, and they can decide for themselves if those are concerns they care about when it comes to investing in a cordless tool platform. Feeling guilty yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 Well, I won’t comment on your worldview but I would say that your “why not” attempts to spread a fair amount of FUD: why would you assume 20v Max is approaching the end of its lifecycle? FlexVolt isn’t a replacement anymore than M18 High Output is a replacement for all previous M18 batteries. 20v Max isn’t getting the V18 treatment when it and its main two competitors all have well over 100 tools in the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldDominionDIYer Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 Because it is, 20V Max is going away. They will continue to produce for many years into the future but technology has moved on 18650 batteries are going away, and Dewalt is heavily invested in the 60V Flexvolt system and it is an excellent solution. Eventually all their tools will be completely refreshed to allow them to take advantage of the 60V flexvolt system at which point you will be unable to buy a 20V max (professional level) tool it will only be built to the new 60V Flexvolt architecture. Realistically professionals will need to refresh their own equipment so it won't be a huge deal but it will catch a few out in the cold. BTW Dewalt didn't play the deceptive advertising game until after they were bought out by Black & Decker, so again I get that it was a corporate plan not a Dewalt plan just to bad B&D couldn't let Dewalt keep rocking along, they didn't need their "help". It's clear to me B&D bought Dewalt to get ownership of their class leading technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 Interesting theory; but FlexVolt is already backwards compatible and wakes up plenty of 20v Max tools. But why would I want FlexVolt packs hanging off my drill anyway? 20v Max is alive and well as M18 and Makita LXT are, and far more alive and well than any other company’s offerings beyond red and teal. You're right about one thing though; 18650 cells aren’t sticking around. That’s why all of my 20v Max batteries already have 20700/21700 cells in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldDominionDIYer Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 My understanding is that FlexVolt utilizes 20700. Have they produced anything in 21700 yet, not to my knowledge but I don't stay up on Dewalt as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
More^×2U Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 26 minutes ago, OldDominionDIYer said: My understanding is that FlexVolt utilizes 20700. Have they produced anything in 21700 yet, not to my knowledge but I don't stay up on Dewalt as much. DCB230 1P 3.0 ah packs use 21700 cells. A 1P 4.0 ah is probably on the way..ala Metabo. New 9.0 flexvolt probably does as well. 20v max (18v in Europe) isnt going anywhere. The future for impact drivers, compact drills, rotary and 3speed hammers (dcd996) is more light weight and compact designs (kudos to Milwaukee and Makita) while maintaining current power output (1000 watts). 60v makes no sense for these platforms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babysaw Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 1 hour ago, OldDominionDIYer said: Because it is, 20V Max is going away. They will continue to produce for many years into the future but technology has moved on 18650 batteries are going away, and Dewalt is heavily invested in the 60V Flexvolt system and it is an excellent solution. Eventually all their tools will be completely refreshed to allow them to take advantage of the 60V flexvolt system at which point you will be unable to buy a 20V max (professional level) tool it will only be built to the new 60V Flexvolt architecture. With two new jigsaws, an orbital sander and a router coming out this fall, how exactly is 20V max going away? Many tools don’t need 15 cell power. We won’t ever see a flexvolt drywall cut out or screw gun for instance. You won’t ever need a 60 volt (oops wouldn’t mean to mislead you) I mean 56v laser level. Youre asking folks in a power tool forum if they feel guilty one second, accusing them of dishonesty the next. This fool is trippin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 10 minutes ago, Babysaw said: Many tools don’t need 15 cell power. We won’t ever see a flexvolt drywall cut out or screw gun for instance. You won’t ever need a 60 volt (oops wouldn’t mean to mislead you) I mean 56v laser level. 54v. Are you trying to deceive people?! Also, haven’t you heard? 18650 is the past. That’s why all M12 batteries have them (and are restricted to that size thanks to stempacks), and all the impact wrenches, drills and impact driver kits announced at NPS18 come bundled with XC5.0 batteries powered by old school 18650 cells. You know, because M18 is dying. It is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldDominionDIYer Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 Whoa guys easy! Do 20V Max batteries work In FlexVolt tools? Because all tools that could benefit from Higher output battery packs will be FlexVolt and not compatible with the older 20V Max system. No it's as I said "the beginning of the end", NOT the end, Oh and Dewalt is using 20700 not 21700 battery cells in the FlexVolt and other new batteries. You all need to realize Dewalt did not go all-in on flexVolt for nothing every single tool that requires high output energy will get converted to FlexVolt I guarantee it! Otherwise they will not be competitive, and its all about leading the industry which Dewalt cannot do with their 20V Max alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 Do M18 batteries work in V18 tools? Do M18 CP 1.5/2.0 or XC 3.0/4.0/5.0/6.0 really work in the new high output M18 tools? Every high output tool Milwaukee will make will run like crap on the 18650 batteries. Most 20v Max tools don’t require 15 cells worth of “high output energy”. Just like only the 5ish new tools Milwaukee announced really need the High Output 12.0 Oh, and Dewalt is using 21700 in the 20v Max XR 3.0 compact batteries that I own. I can’t tell if you’re arguing in bad faith or just ignorant of the facts at this point. The future of a FlexVolt OMT, jigsaw, drywall screwgun, impact driver, etc. will be an interesting one. Unless you’re saying those won’t be replaced because they aren’t high energy output...but you wouldn’t just move goalposts like that, would you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldDominionDIYer Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 I'm not "moving goal posts" you folks seem to like to make a lot of assumptions! I said and I quote "the beginning of the end for 20V Max" that doesn't imply or indicate that Dewalt will stop producing these tools tomorrow, it means they will gradually phase in their new flexvolt system as they remodel future tools that can benefit from the higher output batteries. Geez calm down, have I touched on a sore subject? Oh and its 20700: https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2017/04/dewalt-20v-max-60ah-pack-teardown.html https://toolguyd.com/dewalt-dcb230-20v-3ah-battery-pack/ Enjoy your Holiday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 So you really are just trolling. Good to know. Would you like me to open a 230 and take a picture for you? You still haven’t explained what happens with tools like drill drivers, impact wrenches, etc. in this supposed phasing out from 20v Max to FlexVolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldDominionDIYer Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 I'm sorry but all factual evidence I have states Dewalt went with 20700, unless you can show me otherwise I'll trust my sources. I have no intention of explaining what happens to Dewalt tools I can see what's happening! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 8 minutes ago, OldDominionDIYer said: I'm sorry but all factual evidence I have states Dewalt went with 20700, unless you can show me otherwise I'll trust my sources. I have no intention of explaining what happens to Dewalt tools I can see what's happening! Dude. Shut it down. Or I will. Also, welcome to the forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
More^×2U Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, OldDominionDIYer said: I'm sorry but all factual evidence I have states Dewalt went with 20700, unless you can show me otherwise I'll trust my sources. I have no intention of explaining what happens to Dewalt tools I can see what's happening! DCB230 has Samsung 30T 21700 INR21700-30T (3000mah) cells. The toolguy post was posted before the batteries were on the market. 20700 was used for the dcb206 6.0 packs. 21700 cells have a lower impedance than 20700 cells. Would make sense to use 21700 for a 1P pack. Lower impedance= more power (less loss due to impedance) and future proof for future 4000+mah (4.0ah) 1P pack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 1 hour ago, More^×2U said: DCB230 has Samsung 30T 21700 INR21700-30T (3000mah) cells. The toolguy post was posted before the batteries were on the market. 20700 was used for the dcb206 6.0 packs. 21700 cells have a lower impedance than 20700 cells. Would make sense to use 21700 for a 1P pack. Lower impedance= more power (less loss due to impedance) and future proof for future 4000+mah (4.0ah) 1P pack. Sorry dude, we are getting off topic. Let’s let it lie where it lies. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 So going back to the op, Dewalt is a real good manufacturer of tools, I wish I could limit myself to just one line but alas.... Too bad about the recip saws, I don’t have one. I bought a Milwaukee corded sawzall from one of our mods a while back. It’s a sawzall, there really is no comparison. My Makita 18v recip is really good. I have heard mixed reviews on the Dewalt recip but they are still the king of the mitersaw in New England. And my 20v hammer is the bees knees. A lot of guys don’t like the three speed tranny but I like it a lot. And that chuck is diamond hard. Pulse the three speed impact is still my go to impact. The new Surge I got is awesome. My Dewalt mid torque impact wrench is a dream to use. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 We think a lot alike @ChrisK, for carpenter tools yellow is damn good. Their midtorque is tempting but I’m trying to Lee my garage tools red and the Fuel mid torque is awesome. The 3 speed 996 is my favourite drill; torque for every application. I’m trying to stay away from M18 12.0 but if I do my only recip will be an M18 Fuel Hackzall lol. Mitre saws though...yellow all day. The red 7.25 looks like a beauty but I’ll wait for a brushless 20v Max version instead. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 19 minutes ago, Bremon said: We think a lot alike @ChrisK, for carpenter tools yellow is damn good. Their midtorque is tempting but I’m trying to Lee my garage tools red and the Fuel mid torque is awesome. The 3 speed 996 is my favourite drill; torque for every application. I’m trying to stay away from M18 12.0 but if I do my only recip will be an M18 Fuel Hackzall lol. Mitre saws though...yellow all day. The red 7.25 looks like a beauty but I’ll wait for a brushless 20v Max version instead. Yeah, what with the Milwaukee tools I have been purchasing I bought their new Chainsaw today. I was going to go Flexvolt because I have two flexvolt tools, the circ and the grinder, but the chain tensioning bolts cinched it. I’ve been burnt by Milwaukee a few times but what I have I really like, the 10” miter, the transfer pump, the Surge (really liking that), the m12 hoodie and inflator. I figured I’ll try this one out. I hope I don’t get burned! I was going to go Flexvolt on the miter but I figured the size and weight of the Milwaukee won out. I have my Kapex in the shop so I figured going lighter and battery only was okay plus I have two 9.0sAll told though I don’t see getting rid of my Dewalts. Even my brother who uses Milwaukee exclusively loves my yellow tools. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 I found a deal on the FlexVolt chainsaw but couldn’t pull the trigger, it just seems like sort of a dud. The Milwaukee looks really nice. Milwaukee definitely has a few turds they polished and slapped “Fuel” on and sent to market, but their impacts, the Surge, etc. definitely aren’t in that group lol. Their new table saw looks like an upgrade to the FlexVolt, it’s just unfortunate they’re two years too late to get my money for a table saw lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07Sierra Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 My dad recently picked up a flexvolt chainsaw, it's a been a great saw so far... The worries about the plastic chain tensioner are totally overblown, Ave on YouTube has everyone scared like it's going to come apart and the whole saw is useless.. He has already cut over a cord of wood for heat in the garage over the winter on some smaller trees with his and no issues. Adjusts fine and very easily which honestly was a big selling point and it doesn't really feel cheap in the slightest. The amount of times you will actually use the saw and effectively need to adjust the chain, it doesn't even matter. Would I use it as my standalone chainsaw in the woods to cut my 5 cords of winters wood for the house, Probably not... We got a 450 Rancher for the big stuff. Its a great saw with a ton of power to do many a jobs around the house, take with you to the camp, on the ATV whatever you need to do. Its not going to replace your big pro saws but it's great at what it's meant for... It made a believer out of me for sure. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one, but dad has one so I don't need too haha 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 I’ll have to see what Prime Day has for Dewalt deals lol. The M18 chainsaw is too dear for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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