Cordless Tool/Battery Interface Aesthetics

[fm2176]

I thought about this while responding to Altan's thread on Festool's new tools, which has gotten a little sidetracked discussing batteries.  Anyway, what are everyone's thoughts on tool design and aesthetics, especially when talking about older tool designs coupled with newer high capacity and/or subcompact batteries?  

 

In my opinion most platforms have gotten their basic designs down, with signature features like grip/handle design, overmolding, and logos being shared between tool types.  Of course, most brands have their signature colors as well, be they DeWalt Yellow or Milwaukee Red, and most of us can tell the difference between Ryobi and MetaboHPT Green or Bosch and Makita Blue at a glance.  The point of this thread is to discuss the traits of established platforms and how well they have adapted to newer battery technologies.

 

First, I'll pick on two TTI platforms, Ryobi One+ and Ridgid 18v, both of which still use battery interfaces that were originally designed for Ni-Cad batteries.  They each have compact (or even subcompact) tools in their 18v lines but the battery connector is disproportionately large in my opinion.  I have some Ridgid tools where the battery is longer than the tool itself, and the same can be said for Ryobi.  On the flip side, these brands' attempts at compact batteries make the older tools look disproportionately large, with a relatively tiny battery snapped into a large tool housing.  Ni-Cad batteries are much larger than comparative Li-Ion packs, so I think that the newer high output batteries better fit these than they do newer platforms.  

 

Next up are two of the most popular platforms in North America: DeWalt 20v Max and Milwaukee M18.  Both of these were initially released around 2010, give or take a year, and initially offered the then-standard 1.3Ah or 1.5Ah compact battery and 3.0Ah extended runtime battery.  Later developments allowed each to upgrade those same sized packs to 2.0Ah and 5.0Ah output respectively.  Over the decade-plus they've been out, each brand has released more modern and capable tools, but they are still tied to a battery interface designed in the late 2000s.  Some existing tools required modification or were incompatible with newly developed batteries, as the larger format of battery packs using 21700 cells versus those using 18650 cells required larger battery compartments or most space between a housing and belt hook.

 

So again, what do you think?  Function is beauty, in a way, and if you need a lighter battery or one capable of hours of runtime, there's no better time to be a tool user.  On the other hand, if you enjoy proportionality and basic looks, it can be hard to pair that compact battery with the circular saw, or the 9.0Ah battery with the compact impact driver.  I will admit that when I'm undertaking smaller projects I'll sometimes do just that, however, as some tool/battery pairings look downright comedic.  I'll try to share some pictures at a later date.

[Altan]

9 minutes ago, fm2176 said:

I thought about this while responding to Altan's thread on Festool's new tools, which has gotten a little sidetracked discussing batteries.  Anyway, what are everyone's thoughts on tool design and aesthetics, especially when talking about older tool designs coupled with newer high capacity and/or subcompact batteries?  

 

In my opinion most platforms have gotten their basic designs down, with signature features like grip/handle design, overmolding, and logos being shared between tool types.  Of course, most brands have their signature colors as well, be they DeWalt Yellow or Milwaukee Red, and most of us can tell the difference between Ryobi and MetaboHPT Green or Bosch and Makita Blue at a glance.  The point of this thread is to discuss the traits of established platforms and how well they have adapted to newer battery technologies.

 

First, I'll pick on two TTI platforms, Ryobi One+ and Ridgid 18v, both of which still use battery interfaces that were originally designed for Ni-Cad batteries.  They each have compact (or even subcompact) tools in their 18v lines but the battery connector is disproportionately large in my opinion.  I have some Ridgid tools where the battery is longer than the tool itself, and the same can be said for Ryobi.  On the flip side, these brands' attempts at compact batteries make the older tools look disproportionately large, with a relatively tiny battery snapped into a large tool housing.  Ni-Cad batteries are much larger than comparative Li-Ion packs, so I think that the newer high output batteries better fit these than they do newer platforms.  

 

Next up are two of the most popular platforms in North America: DeWalt 20v Max and Milwaukee M18.  Both of these were initially released around 2010, give or take a year, and initially offered the then-standard 1.3Ah or 1.5Ah compact battery and 3.0Ah extended runtime battery.  Later developments allowed each to upgrade those same sized packs to 2.0Ah and 5.0Ah output respectively.  Over the decade-plus they've been out, each brand has released more modern and capable tools, but they are still tied to a battery interface designed in the late 2000s.  Some existing tools required modification or were incompatible with newly developed batteries, as the larger format of battery packs using 21700 cells versus those using 18650 cells required larger battery compartments or most space between a housing and belt hook.

 

So again, what do you think?  Function is beauty, in a way, and if you need a lighter battery or one capable of hours of runtime, there's no better time to be a tool user.  On the other hand, if you enjoy proportionality and basic looks, it can be hard to pair that compact battery with the circular saw, or the 9.0Ah battery with the compact impact driver.  I will admit that when I'm undertaking smaller projects I'll sometimes do just that, however, as some tool/battery pairings look downright comedic.  I'll try to share some pictures at a later date.

     I am not well informed about patenting thingy, but as much as I know you can have the patent for twenty years only, I might be wrong though, if you are informed about this you can correct me. So because of that, brands do need to change their battery platform every twenty years, that is what I believe.

     

     I also believe big brands are all together but we see them competing, or it just looks like that they compete. More than tools I am well informed about tool accessories and I have noticed a lot of things just with comparing them, every detail helps me to understand the connections better, even the country of origin, I give you some examples, most of jigsaw blades sold in Europe are made in Switzerland, probably by diablo which is a Bosch related company, if you buy DeWALT jigsaw blades in UK, mostly they are made in Switzerland, the same with Makita also. So basically Bosch is producing jigsaw blades for DeWALT, how these two companies can compete if they do business with each other?! I can give you hundreds of examples talking for two days here.

 

     It is a bit the same thing when it comes to tools, a lot of tools produced by different brands have very similar design in general, even if they are not from the same parent company. It seems like either they are produced by one of these tool brands and shared with others or by another company which designs for all brands. i remember DeWALT had a 12V wall scanner which is discontinued (they made two different models but almost the same design) just after DeWALT discontinued this tool Makita started to produce it as 18V tool! How comes?!!! Both have very similar designs. 

 

    Also most brands produce their grinders in China. It seems there is a manufacturing plant in China producing grinders, in January for Makita, in February for DeWALT and in March for Milwaukee :)))) Country of origin can tell you a lot, that is why it is important to know. I know some companies that do not wish to share any data about the origin of their products, British brand called Trend is one of them. But i know how to find out even though it takes long time. 

[fm2176]

Interesting...I haven't been closely following new tools for a while, but I can see where some brands source the same, or at least similar, designs from factories.  Here in the US, a lot of Bosch power tool accessories were rebranded as Diablo at The Home Depot (THD).  The Diablo spade bits I own are identical in all but color to the Bosch Daredevil bits.  Since they have the same parent company, this is very likely just a Big Box (mainly Lowe's/THD) deal to entice brand loyalists to one company or another.  I own a number of other blades and bits, and prefer buying ones made in Switzerland, Italy, the US, or other Western nations, but I haven't gone so far as to examine how close they are in form and function.

 

The country of origin (COO) of most tools available here in the States is China.  DeWalt has some assembly plants here and in Mexico and some tools are manufactured in Europe, but I'm sure that there are a few score of Chinese spies here in my house at the moment, with labels like DeWalt, Milwaukee, Ryobi, Ridgid, EGO, Bosch, and MetaboHPT.  Since I sold my last Norinco, I at least don't have any Chinese guns at the moment, I just have to guard the ones made under the supervision of Stalin.  😁  I believe that the Chinese mega factories that churn out so many products (not only tools but other household goods) are both good and bad for the corporations that sell those goods in western nations is both good and bad for us.  On the one hand, we're getting tools that are mostly serviceable and capable enough that a lot of Westerners probably don't even consider COO.  On the other hand, we've lost most industrial capability ourselves and have moved to a philosophy of disposable goods (where we once would fix a tool, appliance, or other item, we now just toss it and buy another).

 

A final thought, trying to bring this discussion back to tool aesthetics and such: perhaps the biggest (potential) Chinese copy--or knock off--I can think of in recent years is the Harbor Freight Hercules brand.  Hercules and Bauer were both released roughly the same time, with each having designs seemingly borrowed from DeWalt and Milwaukee respectively, and a lot of tool sites and YouTube channels were quick to point out how similar the Hercules and DeWalt batteries are.  I won't pretend to know the intricacies of swapping out or changing machinery components, but I can see where your final statement is feasible.  It is definitely possible that a single factory is making tools for more than one brand, using similar internal components and brand-specified housings requiring a simple injection mold swap.  China does, after all, have a long history of copying things; Russia (and previously the Soviet Union) has a long history of its military technology being stolen through reverse engineering, and the recent crash of a US Navy F-35 in the South China Sea saw the Navy take precautions to avoid the Chinese raising the jet.  

[Altan]

10 hours ago, fm2176 said:

Interesting...I haven't been closely following new tools for a while, but I can see where some brands source the same, or at least similar, designs from factories.  Here in the US, a lot of Bosch power tool accessories were rebranded as Diablo at The Home Depot (THD).  The Diablo spade bits I own are identical in all but color to the Bosch Daredevil bits.  Since they have the same parent company, this is very likely just a Big Box (mainly Lowe's/THD) deal to entice brand loyalists to one company or another.  I own a number of other blades and bits, and prefer buying ones made in Switzerland, Italy, the US, or other Western nations, but I haven't gone so far as to examine how close they are in form and function.

 

The country of origin (COO) of most tools available here in the States is China.  DeWalt has some assembly plants here and in Mexico and some tools are manufactured in Europe, but I'm sure that there are a few score of Chinese spies here in my house at the moment, with labels like DeWalt, Milwaukee, Ryobi, Ridgid, EGO, Bosch, and MetaboHPT.  Since I sold my last Norinco, I at least don't have any Chinese guns at the moment, I just have to guard the ones made under the supervision of Stalin.  😁  I believe that the Chinese mega factories that churn out so many products (not only tools but other household goods) are both good and bad for the corporations that sell those goods in western nations is both good and bad for us.  On the one hand, we're getting tools that are mostly serviceable and capable enough that a lot of Westerners probably don't even consider COO.  On the other hand, we've lost most industrial capability ourselves and have moved to a philosophy of disposable goods (where we once would fix a tool, appliance, or other item, we now just toss it and buy another).

 

A final thought, trying to bring this discussion back to tool aesthetics and such: perhaps the biggest (potential) Chinese copy--or knock off--I can think of in recent years is the Harbor Freight Hercules brand.  Hercules and Bauer were both released roughly the same time, with each having designs seemingly borrowed from DeWalt and Milwaukee respectively, and a lot of tool sites and YouTube channels were quick to point out how similar the Hercules and DeWalt batteries are.  I won't pretend to know the intricacies of swapping out or changing machinery components, but I can see where your final statement is feasible.  It is definitely possible that a single factory is making tools for more than one brand, using similar internal components and brand-specified housings requiring a simple injection mold swap.  China does, after all, have a long history of copying things; Russia (and previously the Soviet Union) has a long history of its military technology being stolen through reverse engineering, and the recent crash of a US Navy F-35 in the South China Sea saw the Navy take precautions to avoid the Chinese raising the jet.  

I have seen those spade (flat) bits from Bosch and diablo being exactly the same with different colours. You can see them from Hilti as well. 

 

[Altan]

Japanese are good with screwdriver and drill bits also, Star-M, Vessel, Koken, Top and a few others are good with tool accessories, but I have not seen Japanese blades for jigsaw or reciprocating saw. Germans are also good, Athlet, Ush, Wekador, Felo, Wiha, Famag and a few others do produce good German made screwdriver bits and drill bits, A French brand called Diager (they bought Ush) makes good drill bits made in France. Austrian brand called Alpen makes very good drill bits, also another Austrian brand called Fisch. 

[Altan]

It seems it is a specific problem only with English speaking countries that they just love to import Chinese products ))  It is not just the US, UK is the same. Chinese products are flooded everywhere in UK. It seems in Eastern European countries you can find more European made products than the UK which is extremely funny to me and also I keep thinking about it to find the reason for that. We just keep making waste with low quality products and that is what I don't like about Far East products in general, I have to mention that China is capable of making good tools which they rarely do. 

[fm2176]

Without getting too into politics and such, I think that, in the US at least, various taxes and laws simply make it cheaper for companies to outsource to China.  Especially nowadays, when some want a $15 minimum wage for even entry level service jobs, it's cheaper to import and pay the applicable tariffs (which might be negligible due to trade agreements) on products made by workers making pennies an hour overseas.  We've become a largely disposable society, but one where brand recognition is still everything.  An M18 saw that may come from the same factory as Brand X is going to sell better, and for a higher price, than its competitor because it's Milwaukee.  That new M18 Fuel Sawzall isn't cut from the same cloth as our dad's old corded Sawzall, but its specs are impressive and it does the job.  Sure, there may be a trigger issue down the line, but that will be covered by the 5-year warranty.  Meanwhile, flea markets and work shops around the US are filled with fifty-year-old Made in the US Sawzalls that still work perfectly fine, maybe having had a set of replacement brushes at some point.  Of course, I'm one to talk: besides a few inherited tools my collection is full of China's finest products.  

[Altan]

Star-M hex shank brad point drill bits made in Japan, they have a full range of this and also some others, made of one piece of steel, not plugged. 

[Altan]

40 minutes ago, fm2176 said:

Without getting too into politics and such, I think that, in the US at least, various taxes and laws simply make it cheaper for companies to outsource to China.  Especially nowadays, when some want a $15 minimum wage for even entry level service jobs, it's cheaper to import and pay the applicable tariffs (which might be negligible due to trade agreements) on products made by workers making pennies an hour overseas.  We've become a largely disposable society, but one where brand recognition is still everything.  An M18 saw that may come from the same factory as Brand X is going to sell better, and for a higher price, than its competitor because it's Milwaukee.  That new M18 Fuel Sawzall isn't cut from the same cloth as our dad's old corded Sawzall, but its specs are impressive and it does the job.  Sure, there may be a trigger issue down the line, but that will be covered by the 5-year warranty.  Meanwhile, flea markets and work shops around the US are filled with fifty-year-old Made in the US Sawzalls that still work perfectly fine, maybe having had a set of replacement brushes at some point.  Of course, I'm one to talk: besides a few inherited tools my collection is full of China's finest products.  

DeWALT TiN Coated Hex shank drill bits are made in China and they are good quality.