I raise you this...

[noops]

Description of work is provide power to pack pole. The pack poles are all existing and older than dirt. They're in terrible shape (if you hadn't noticed) the double tub panel is full and also old. The store has been here 35 years and was bought by some corporate entity who noticed the dirt old and dodgey poles but didn't look at the service. I don't even know where to start but the DNE will definitely not suffice.

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[JimboS1ice]

Winner winner chicken dinner! That's pretty pathetic talk about a hack job

Jimbo

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[KnarlyCarl]

Hey I always like seeing work stories like this, whats the fix?

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[noops]

A true solution would be gutting and starting over. New ownership has taken over and someone recognized something was amiss and got us out there. All I did today was disconnect the 2 pack poles that had their wires tight - it turned out there they extension cords that were plugged into a box in the ceiling. Actually the fans, the pack poles, and several plugs on the walls all seemingly plug into stuff above the T-bar. Working on a quote including replacing the 4 pack poles, updating the lighting - those are all F40T12 lamps. Roughly 350 lamps which puts yearly power cost around $6000. I think it would be better to turf the whole lot and start over as many lenses have seen better days or are simply missing. But it would be easy to save $4500+ a year in just lighting.

Other issues are:

The rats nest above the ceiling tiles (nothing is strapped)

The 20A freezer that also has 15A plugs on it

The F96T12 fixtures on the original ceiling which are likely still connected (nothing to show they're not)

62 basically unlabeled circuits - I can't imagine everything is being used but tracing it out could easily take 2 guys a week. More depending how much stuff is in the ceiling and like I said it's a disaster. There isn't even anything zapstrapped to the support lines of the T-bar. The only thing holding up all the AC90/BX is the ceiling itself. Oh and many of the tiles have multiple tiles on them because when they installed the 2x4 drop-ins they didn't remove tiles they just relocated them.

As for the pile of crap above the ceiling tiles I don't even know where to start. A full gut and renovation would be best but the likelihood of that happening is almost zero as any reno will likely be a retrofit but in this case it's seen 35+ years of half-assed retrofits and this really is the result.

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[KnarlyCarl]

Nothing is strapped, hate dealing with that.

Would you prefer putting in some T5 lighting instead, seams like that's all they do in new buildings

[HiltiWpg]

Gotta love the surprise when you lift a tile. It's like a sick game of Russian roulette.

Nothing makes my day like BX draped everywhere, no clips, tie wire or straps. We just finished one where every tile had garbage, clippings, BX armor and friggen coffee cups strewn about.

The floor looked like a dump and the building manager asked why we were so messy. He didn't believe us so I tilted a tile down. After he stopped cursing and swearing he vowed to never use the previous EC again!

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[noops]

I don't think I'd go with T5 fixtures as their running costs don't make sense for this application. In the back warehouse some T5 highways on motion detectors or something might work well but for the store front I think T8 LED or straight LED panel are more efficient and would cut power usage by 70% or more. That's rather huge. Their current usage for lighting is about 14,000W. Using T8 LED you'd be around 4000W. In a place that has 2 ceiling fans and no AC the employees would love to get rid of an extra 10,000W and I'm sure that the ones paying the electrical bill would love to save that on their yearly bill too.

The worst part about the BX is that it's such a complete mess that I can't tell you if there's stuff abandoned up there or anything aside from that it's a disaster. I mean it's safe in that it's been like that for a long time as hasn't caused a fire but it's dangerous in that it's such a mess that even if something was painfully wrong it's hidden which basically means it's really not safe.

This sadly seems to often be the dilemma tho this one is worse than most. It's very bad but how do you fix it? How far do you go? Just the lighting alone I'd ballpark at 25-30k. That's replacement. But replacing is going to uncover issues and ideally it would be far easier to do with a scissor lift. So where do you draw the line? I can tell you that just fixing the lights isn't a simple fix as these fixtures are all very old, very dirty, and require a full rewire which makes replacement more cost effective.

You could save some money going with standard lamps but long term that costs you money as they cost double to run every year and that means after about 15 months your savings is now an expense as you pay for the added hydro.

Then you have the service which currently doubles as light switches. I didn't count on site but it seems that there's about 20 circuits doing lighting. That's nearly twice as many as there needs to be with the current load on 15A circuits and much more than twice the load using 20A circuits. Again what is going on? Abandoning this mess and starting over could free up much needed space in the panel and we could even put them into a contactor with some switches or maybe something fancier. But that's more cost upfront. The manager has said the breakers are being changed out every couple of years. I don't know how much an FPE bolt-on breaker costs but some switches and a contactor will last for years and will be cheaper to replace then discontinued breakers should that ever be the case.

There needs to be a balance between cost and stuff being redone. If cost is the only standard and we're trying to keep it as low as possible then this is what you end up with and the work needed now has snowballed. Had the fixtures been replaced with T8 stuff 8 years ago maybe the fixtures would be reusable and you could get away with relamping to LED. That doesn't deal with the lack of switches or the mess of wire but at least it would look okay.

I think I've rambled on long enough now.

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[WigWagWorkshop]

Just wanted to say, that posts like this are an education to me.  I appreciate the post, and you sharing with the crew.  I am not a big fan of most "Remodeling" reality TV shows, but one I actually enjoyed (besides the stupid drama they create) was the Holmes on Holmes series. I enjoyed how they pointed out what was wrong, and then explain how it should have been done. Keyword being is that they would explain the correct way of doing the project.

 

On another note, there was another show, with Adam Carolla, that tried to do the same thing except they focused on the drama. The show only took the time to tell what was wrong, and to humiliate the contractor, but never actually told how to fix it.

[noops]

The problem I have with Holmes on Homes is that he has an unlimited budget. This is an excellent example. If we do work here like changing out the fixtures we will become the contractor of record. We can tell the client they need to do a complete overhaul but to really do it right would mean closing the business down for maybe 4 weeks at a total cost of close to $100,000. We can make it work with what we have and fix the major known issues (20A plugs on a 15A circuit or something like that) but that's really a bandaid solution. 95 times out of 100 the homeowner is going to say do the bandaid. The majority of HoH shows are the consequences of bandaid solutions compounding on another.

It's easy and convenient to blame the contractor but if the client wasn't willing to pay for the job to be done right the first time then it's not always the contractors fault.

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[HiltiWpg]

The problem I have with Holmes on Homes is that he has an unlimited budget. This is an excellent example. If we do work here like changing out the fixtures we will become the contractor of record. We can tell the client they need to do a complete overhaul but to really do it right would mean closing the business down for maybe 4 weeks at a total cost of close to $100,000. We can make it work with what we have and fix the major known issues (20A plugs on a 15A circuit or something like that) but that's really a bandaid solution. 95 times out of 100 the homeowner is going to say do the bandaid. The majority of HoH shows are the consequences of bandaid solutions compounding on another.

It's easy and convenient to blame the contractor but if the client wasn't willing to pay for the job to be done right the first time then it's not always the contractors fault.

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Too many contractors fail to educate the customer. They are too afraid to ask for more money and are scared to present alternatives.

You would be surprised how easily people are willing to invest more money when they are properly educated.

I often get asked how I "up sell" customers. I don't.

I give them options and let them pick. They hardly ever pick the cheap band aid when you spend the time and show them the differences.

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[noops]

I've found it totally depends on the overall cost. I do the same thing but when the fix amounts to having to rewire the house I've only had 2 okays and a whole bunch of nopes.

For little things yes those are easy. We actually just worked on a place where they were flipping a house. On the surface everything looked really good. Permitted panel installed in 95, Lumex wiring, newish plugs and switches, all the aesthetics boxes were ticked.

They wanted to add some counter plugs, add electric heat, and move the GFI in the bath.

16 plugs in this house that was built 100 years ago. 1 doesn't work at all, 13 have open grounds, 2 are properly working. Turns out there's 3 - 14/3 home runs feeding the old wiring junctioned in the old panel box. There's more junctions but I don't know where they go. Many of the circuits have 1 or 2 plugs on them. A BBH in the laundry room was stolen off the dryer circuit. Stuff like that.

The house needed a full rewire but it wasn't in the budget.

Part of it is likely also because real estate costs here are ridiculous but none of these things factor into the price. It's all about square footage and lot size. Neighbourhood plays a role too. But cheap finishes and such doesn't seem to matter. Maybe that's normal but to me a new house that went with the wifi is best mantra is terrible.

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