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Planning my Deck - Question about the Ledger board


pingman222

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I'm in the process of planning to build my deck on our new house and have come accross a dilemma in planning.

 

We are building a 13'x16' deck, and I would like to use 2x10 or 2x12 joists in order to span longer and cut down on the need for screw piles.  The house builder had included a ledger board already attached to the home upon building, but used a 2x8.  The existing 2x8 also only goes to the end of the house, which is 11'.  I need that to be 13', and then have the joists span the 16'.

 

Since there is only a 2x8 attached to the house, and i need it longer, is it possible to just attach a 2x12 on top of it for my 13', and have that be where the joists will now attach and be my rim joist?  Or do i have to remove the 2x8 (hoping to avoid as to reduce the amount of siding cutting etc etc.

 

I know codes everywhere are different, but just looking for some feedback here!

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Check with the Town just like Grumpy says. On another note, I would not go over the 2x8 like that though, that's 4ish inches of unsupported wood overlap and those decks have a tendency to collapse at the worst of times!!! 

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I learned long ago, the easier way usually turns out to be more work. replace the ledger board, check with local codes and beef it up from there for the long haul....

most people think of present time budget when building decks $500 more can make a 10 year difference......

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On 6/6/2017 at 5:19 PM, pingman222 said:

I'm in the process of planning to build my deck on our new house and have come accross a dilemma in planning.

 

We are building a 13'x16' deck, and I would like to use 2x10 or 2x12 joists in order to span longer and cut down on the need for screw piles.  The house builder had included a ledger board already attached to the home upon building, but used a 2x8.  The existing 2x8 also only goes to the end of the house, which is 11'.  I need that to be 13', and then have the joists span the 16'.

 

Since there is only a 2x8 attached to the house, and i need it longer, is it possible to just attach a 2x12 on top of it for my 13', and have that be where the joists will now attach and be my rim joist?  Or do i have to remove the 2x8 (hoping to avoid as to reduce the amount of siding cutting etc etc.

 

I know codes everywhere are different, but just looking for some feedback here!

consult your local building codes, do not skimp here, the majority of deck failures in the country are from improperly installed ledger boards, rip it off and start over, with water proofing membrane behind it and drip cap on top. we are in the process of of redoing a deck now, 10 feet off the ground with a 2 by 8 ledger that has started to pull away from the house. be sure to get all permits, insurance companies are starting to pull permits on renovations when it comes time to file a claim.

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3 level deck finished last month code "plus" framing. went 12 inch on center on hot tub deck added extra beams and cross bracing. 28 piers were poured, plans only called for 22. like comp said if you plan on using it for a long time go heavy duty

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thanks for all the replies guys, and from someone with a civil eng. background i completely understand the need to build it right and beefier than "allowable" to only have to do it once and leave it for 15-20 years.

 

With that being said i am more open to new designs now using 2x6 joists (w/ 2x8 beams), or 2x8 joists.  Both are acceptable within my city code and the spans will be well under the limits.  2x6 & 2x8 joist spans would be spaced at 7'6", with posts 3'3" apart.

 

 

It's going to be a low deck, right now from top of ledger to rough grade we are sitting at about 25" high.  Once we get our topsoil & rock/sod in there, i'm sure we'll be hovering around 20-22" above grade, not very high, and anything under 24" around here does not require permits.

 

Still keeping with the question though, the builder has already nailed (not bolted yet) a 2x8 ledger to the house, but it stops before the corner trim of the siding.  That's 11', and the wife wants it out at 13'.  The ledger does look to have the proper drip edge over it right now, not entirely sure if it was "completely" flashed how i've been researching it online though, with waterproof membrane up etc etc...you'd have to hope so. Still wondering if i need to extend that out is it still better to replace the entire board (if i'm using the same size board now), or if i could just laminate a 2x8 on top of the existing 2x8 now too, with a post in the cantilevered corner.  With that....how does the flashing now work?  the new 2x8 would not be in contact with the siding/house, but would the existing drip edge need to be extended over both boards?

 

If i was to replace the existing ledger with a full 13' one, i still cannot find a guide that shows how to properly flash at the corner vinyl siding trim.  Do you just run the flashing into the corner trim and that's that because right now, the ledger depth would require me to cut out some of that corner siding.

 

 

I'm going to draw a sketch of my plans and upload it here so that it's easier for everyone to visualize, as well as pictures later on of my current ledger situation.

 

Thanks guys!

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Hopefully these drawings will help illustrate what I'm going for here.

Existing ledger board is provided as shown in the elevation drawings, however in reality it does not go right to the edge of the house, it cuts off before reaching the corner siding trim. If I were to replace this board with a full 13' piece, it would involve cutting that corner trim and I'm still searching on how to flash a corner like that.

My proposal as shown in the section view, is to just attach an extra 2x8 it to the ledger on the short side of the house + to the existing 2x8. That should now float in front of the corner trim, however I am guessing I will need to extend the flashing to cover this piece as well.

Other than that, the dimensions and spans all seem to fit well within my city guidelines for deck building. Open to more opinions!!05a23b0afc378e8b2d5e88bfd03580a2.jpg00fed118f9a4a963660176547d746d8d.jpge9b642a96d7f3e264f67cda55d65e546.jpg

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You should replace the ledger with one that is the right length. To sister a ledger board would be hackery.

The ledger flashing is not so much to protect the ledger as it is to protect the house it is attached to.

With that in mind, you should remove and replace the ledger, ensuring there is a waterproof membrane against the house. If the GC used nails, there probably isn't. Then, You can replace and flash the top of your extended PT ledger with peel and stick waterproof membrane, ensuring water can't travel back under the ledger's existing drip flashing.
Attach it with ledgerloks by fastenmaster.

You can apply that same membrane to the top edge of all your framing- joists, rim, and blocking. That will add more years to your deck than 2 x 12 joists ever would. A roll of it will only set you back $25.

You will need a post under the cantilevered section, but it doesn't have to be directly under the ledger. I would hide it by putting blocking between the last two joists about a foot in from the ledger/rim. Horizontal blocking under that would have the post attached underneath it. In fact, I would build that support from the top down, pouring concrete in the hole and tamping it around a post base attached to the post hanging from the blocking. Much easier.



Blocking on top of your beams between the joists will make your deck bombproof. 16" OC is great for wood decking, but if you want composite, add three joists to make it 12" OC.


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Thanks for all the tips Mordekyle.  I'll definitely think about going to 12" O.C. joists, marginal cost upgrade for what should be a less springy and better built deck as we are looking to go with composite.

 

I'll be sure to dig in deeper and find out exactly what i need to do to replace the ledger boards on both sides.  I'm assuming that the short side-ledger board, when removed, can be replaced with my 16' joist, or should i leave that in there and just run the first joist just next to it (but not touching)?

 

I'll try to get in touch with our builder and see if they can find out what their standard flashing detail is like for their ledger boards.  I would like to think they had done it properly but i guess we will see!

 

The main question still becomes, which i cannot for the life of me find a video or page explaining it, is how to handle the flashing when the ledger will go past the corner trim of the vinyl siding...is anyone willing to draw me a sketch of what that should look like?

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IDK why, but I did not see the pictures earlier.

Ideally, the short ledger would be replaced with a longer joist as well.



- you have to cut a corner. [emoji2]

- an oscillating tool will cut it quickly and accurately. It needs to be cut at the same height as the siding.

The Contractor didn't do you any favors by not leaving space for a deck board. Ideally, the J channel at the bottom of the siding would be over the top of the deck board. It would hide the edge of the first deck board. As it is, it will be next to the first deck board. But you Can still make it work.





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Just took a walk around my neighborhood at some of the houses that had decks included, don't know what they paid, but I'm sure it was a pretty penny from the builder to include it in the build. Both of these decks were elevated probably 7'. One of them had 2x10 joists on a 2x8 ledger, and the other one had the exact scenario I was trying to portray to you guys. Existing 2x8 on wall, attached 2x10 on top to joist into.

The 2x10 joists on the 2x8 ledger just look plain wrong, and upon inspecting the other one, they hadn't even secured the ledger to the house with bolts or lags. Only seeing rows of nails...yikes.

I also did confirm with our house builder that their standard detail for the ledger board is just the house wrap overtop of the drip edge, ledger underneath. There is no peel & stick membrane under there at all.78c9dea0bc608afc2383fcdb983dc84a.jpgb05f34e98e3353972d9e1f5c17735912.jpg

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On 6/15/2017 at 1:23 PM, pingman222 said:

Just took a walk around my neighborhood at some of the houses that had decks included, don't know what they paid, but I'm sure it was a pretty penny from the builder to include it in the build. Both of these decks were elevated probably 7'. One of them had 2x10 joists on a 2x8 ledger, and the other one had the exact scenario I was trying to portray to you guys. Existing 2x8 on wall, attached 2x10 on top to joist into.

The 2x10 joists on the 2x8 ledger just look plain wrong, and upon inspecting the other one, they hadn't even secured the ledger to the house with bolts or lags. Only seeing rows of nails...yikes.

I also did confirm with our house builder that their standard detail for the ledger board is just the house wrap overtop of the drip edge, ledger underneath. There is no peel & stick membrane under there at all.78c9dea0bc608afc2383fcdb983dc84a.jpg

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This is so wrong on so many levels and with it being 7' up in the air in makes it more concerning. I can not tell from the picture is the ledger lagged or ledger locked to the house. Please don't say it just nailed to the house if so it's just and accident waiting to happen. My question would be how did this pass a framing inspection.

 

Down load a copy of this. It is the wood Deck construction guide based on the international residential code.

 

http://www.awc.org/pdf/codes-standards/publications/dca/AWC-DCA62012-DeckGuide-1405.pdf

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just to give an update, i just finished framing the deck over the last 5 days now, had the long weekend here in canada + an extra day off work so it helped to get the bulk of it done, just my wife and I working, and her dad and mine dropping in once in a while to offer some extra help & guidance.

 

I ripped off the existing ledger, replaced it with the proper length one, with as best flashing detail as i could muster up in there.  Peel & stick behind the ledger board, Z flashing on top and the house wrap layered over.  Did the same thing on the other side of the house where we attached a new ledger as well.

 

While i was in there i moved the J channel on the siding up so we could fit the board in underneath, hiding a ripped edge there.

 

Ended up going with double 2x10 beams, and 2x8 joists @ 12" O.C., and we'll putting the joist tape on all of them just before laying the decking, and we decided on timbertech Tropical Amazon Mist.  Will be using Tiger Claw TC-G clips and starborn pro-plugs on the picture frame, and the starborne fascia screws for fascia/risers.

 

It'll be a double picture frame, and my math should be proper that i wont have to cut any field boards....i hope LOL.

 

 

Now my question lies in about the board that goes in/on the drip edge and underneath the J-channel.  Does that get face screwed through  the drip edge or only beside it, into the joists and not the ledger?

 

Also, here in canada our temperatures can vary between -35* C, and +35*C....when we're installing it's probably going to be around +25-30*C, since it would be at it's "hottest", i'm assuming i should mitre my picture frame corners with minimal gap as they should realistically only shrink?   Also, what do you guys like to do with joists that come up higher than the outer rim joist?  Notch it out at the beam? Use a hand planer on the top?  Some of the PT lumber we got was not of the highest standard, so just figuring out how to deal with the inconsistencies of wood framing.

 

 

Anyways, we have some time before the composite arrives, so looking to get a little education before any expensive mistakes happen!

 

 

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You can face screw the decking down just pass the drip edge. The lease amount of hole in the metal the better off you are. I Flashing the tops of joists with peel-and-stick membrane it protects them from water and seals penetrations from decking screws. I run this on my ledger then set my metal on top.

 

 

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On 7/10/2017 at 9:06 PM, regopit said:

You can face screw the decking down just pass the drip edge. The lease amount of hole in the metal the better off you are. I Flashing the tops of joists with peel-and-stick membrane it protects them from water and seals penetrations from decking screws. I run this on my ledger then set my metal on top.

 

 

?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcdnassets.hw.net%2F8d%2Faa%2F8776b2af44498585dc78cf30b7dc%2Ftmp247-2etmp-tcm122-1386642.jpeg

 

 

yup, been using the peel & stick on top of the joists, and we're about 26 boards into the first tier of the deck now, hoping to get the top tier done by today....will be sure to get pictures :)

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No miters. They'll open up, bind, and twist.

A double picture frame can actually look cool with butt cuts, I'll try to find a picture.


Plane the high joists, check with a 78" level. If you have a joist a tad bit low, you can use two layers of peel and stick.

No worries if you have to trim boards; cut all at once with a tracksaw or a "shooter board" (search it up on Youtube)


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On 7/19/2017 at 2:04 AM, Mordekyle said:

No miters. They'll open up, bind, and twist.

A double picture frame can actually look cool with butt cuts, I'll try to find a picture.


Plane the high joists, check with a 78" level. If you have a joist a tad bit low, you can use two layers of peel and stick.

No worries if you have to trim boards; cut all at once with a tracksaw or a "shooter board" (search it up on Youtube)


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ive always used miters 1/8 inch gap glued and screwed with cortex screws and plugs never had a problem. suppose to leave gap to drain and breath. 1/4 inch between decking boards. problem with butt joints you always end up with end showing, if using real wood no problem then. just finished deck with composite railings, put miter returns on all ends. pictured framed the deck with all miters. no ends showing

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