How can 12 volts be enough?

[PutnamEco]

Are any of you really happy with 12 volt tools? I find most of my 18 volt tools barely adequate, for home repair. Yes, I guess the impact driver is sufficient, I bought a Bosch PS40, I thought I would use it more often for some of the smaller jobs I run across, but that has not been the case. It seems so much slower than my 18v LXT.

I can just live with 18v drills, They work well as a drivers. Most of my needs are for 3/8" and 1/2" drill bits, 3/4" and 1" spade/self feed bits and 2 1/8" and 2 3/8" hole saws. I just can't see 12v being sufficient.

18v circular saws, your kidding right? I can only cut maybe 15 2x4s or fewer 2x6s, (forget ripping a 2x) or 5-6 cuts in plywood.

18v Reciprocating saw, maybe once in a while, not for roughing out more than one opening per charge. I can't imagine a 12v reciprocating saw being all that useful. Any how my old 9.6v Makita still works, as I haven't used it enough to wear it out yet...

Where are the big tools? I can actually get a little work done with my Hiti 36v and Milwakee 28v. I really wish more manufacturers would concentrate on bigger more useful tools. I'm guessing it is the home owners/DIYers who are driving the market.

Am I missing something? What is the attraction with 12v and what are you finding it actually useful for?

[wayneburgess]

A good 12v impact driver is a handy bit of kit, and Some of the milwaukee and dewalt 12v tools do not rely too much on sheer power like the pipe cutters and thermal image tools.

And to be honest if you are running constantly all day with a circular saw I get out the corded version.

12v like you say seems to be for light weight applications or very small places.

I am a bit surprised your 18v is struggling though mine goes all day and slams 1" spade bits through joists with no problem at all.

[Conductor562]

I've got several Milwaukee M12 tools and some of them have become indespensable. The inspection camera is awesome and runs for hours on a charge. My M12 jig saw is on of the favorite tools I own. It's small, lite, and the control you get from the handle design is amazing. It's perfect for a lot of jobs I require a jig saw for. I use the M12 compact driver as much as any tool I own. It's awesome for assembly work. I do not own a 12V recip saw but we used my buddies Bosch a lot during his plumbing project in tight area where a full size would have been to big. The design of the Milwaukee and Bosch is perfect, but to me the Dewalt and Makita designs take to much away from the compact benefit to justify themselves. I don't mean to suggest that 12V is a sufficient platform for all job, but there are a lot of jobs that is plenty sufficient.

[PutnamEco]

A good 12v impact driver is a handy bit of kit

I have been wondering what everyone IS finding theirs useful for?

Like I said, I did not find my Bosch PS 40 particularly good for anything, It is a lot slower than my 18v tools, although every once in a while I do find something to use it on, cabinets or other small stuff. I don't believe that I can justify the the cost I paid for it, with how little I use it.

And to be honest if you are running constantly all day with a circular saw I get out the corded version.

It is my opinion that a cordless tool should be sufficient for a small job, for a saw that would be cutting sheathing for a ridge vent, putting in a small dormer, build an entrance canopy, build an outhouse or small shed, etc. I often find myself working where the only power I have to work with is the power I bring with me, and who wants to listen to a generator running all day

I am a bit surprised your 18v is struggling though mine goes all day and slams 1" spade bits through joists with no problem at all.

It is not that it struggles, it is that I have to constantly change/charge batteries, on a busy day 4-6 or more times with my Makita LXT or Milwaukee and this is even with newer batteries. I was definitely charging batteries hot when I was using my drill to drive deck screws. So much so that I've gone out and bought an extra impact driver so I don't have to abuse my batteries.

[Conductor562]

I didn't even mention my M12 multi-tool and rotary tools. They're both plenty sufficient in terms of power. I can trim 3 or 4 door jambs on a single charge for tile work which is what I bought it for. It want a corded model for any lengthy chore, but it nice for its intended purpose. You can pop a battery in and be done almost as quick as you can unroll and plug in a corded model.

[PutnamEco]

My M12 jig saw is on of the favorite tools I own

Say you had invested in another battery platform, say the M18 and you had the matching M18 jigsaw, would it be worth it to you to invest in the M12 jigsaw then?

If you already had a Fein Multi-tool, Crain jamb saw, and numerous Dremel tools? would it still be worth it for you to invest in 12v tools? Are they that much more convenient and would they be able to earn their keep versus using other possibly corded tools?

I could almost see investing in the camera system, I have used my phones camera to check out some blind spots and the FLIR systems do seem to be neat, but I have to wonder if here in Florida it would ever be able to pay for itself. Not many of the people I do work for are very interested in insulation.

Even though I am a tool junkie, there does come a point when I have to question the value of future tool purchases. I want to like 12v tools, in theory smaller lighter tools should be wonderful, but I'm left disenchanted with my limited exposure to them, only owning the PS40 and not being impressed with it and with finding some of my 18v tools disappointing in terms of power and runtime...

[Conductor562]

"Say you had invested in another battery platform, say the M18 and you had the matching M18 jigsaw, would it be worth it to you to invest in the M12 jigsaw then?"

That's a hard question to answer. Knowing what I know now about the control and overall awesomeness of the M12 then yes. I'd lay down that $140 all over again. However, if I had an M18 prior to that then I would have probably never saw the need for it. But yes, it's that cool. It has the best control of any saw I've ever used. It has a very low center of gravity and for cut outs and detailed applications there's no comparison.

"If you already had a Fein Multi-tool, Crain jamb saw, and numerous Dremel tools? would it still be worth it for you to invest in 12v tools? Are they that much more convenient and would they be able to earn their keep versus using other possibly corded tools?"

In regards to the multi-tool, probably not. It's convenient for sure, but if I'd already invested $300 in a Fein I'd have a hard time justifying the purchase. As for the rotary tool though, I prefer the cordless. I had a corded Dremel and after I got used to the Milwaukee I gave the Dremel to my neighbor. The M12 battery life is sufficient and I found the cord to be restrictive in a lot of cases.

[wayneburgess]

I get the point for and against 12v (10.8v) tools.

I also get the same point for 18v and above.

I honestly think we all should look at how much day in and day out running we do.If it's all day every day then you should be using corded really, because it just makes sense.If your up a ladder, or in a little hell hole of a tight spot on a job or somewhere, there just isn't going to be a way of getting power there, then cordless tools are the way.

I just think we are reaching the point where we all need a reality check, and to think a bit harder as you say, before we dive in and start spending.

Matching the day in day out work with the right kit is a job in it's self, and worth a good look before you leap.

But after all these years on job sites lets be honest lads, battery tools have become a must have on many jobs.

12v is less powerful and sometimes slower, but the compact size can save you a shed load of time, and I have a 12v impact driver that gets used just as much if not more than my 18v, and would hate to be without it.

[PutnamEco]

Knowing what I know now about the control and overall awesomeness of the M12 then yes. I'd lay down that $140 all over again.

I will be taking a closer look at that jigsaw, I am wondering what kind of runtime your getting out of it. Does it have enough runtime to do a double sink cutout? How does it hold up cutting thicker materials, like 2x ?

. I had a corded Dremel and after I got used to the Milwaukee I gave the Dremel to my neighbor. The M12 battery life is sufficient and I found the cord to be restrictive in a lot of cases.

Dremel does make a cordless rotary tool the 8200-2/28 . I'll be looking for a comparison test. I'm wondering if one could be better than another. I have some investment in Dremel already. Are the accessories (outside of the bits) compatible?

Fein makes a cordless multi-tool as well the MSX 315, pricey though. I really don't have that much use for a multi-tool in the field, I use them mostly as detail sanders in the shop, and since I've already invested in Makitas LXT, I will probably be considering their LXMT02Z first, I'm glad they came out with it in 18v, so there is some choice in voltage there.

[PutnamEco]

I honestly think we all should look at how much day in and day out running we do.If it's all day every day then you should be using corded really, because it just makes sense.If your up a ladder, or in a little hell hole of a tight spot on a job or somewhere, there just isn't going to be a way of getting power there, then cordless tools are the way.

Most of the time I do prefer to use corded tools. I do however have some reservations. When I have to run multiple extension cords I worry about voltage drop shortening the life of tools and about the legality of more than one cord. I have been lead to believe that running off a generator is another life shortening use of power tools, especially with generators that automatically throttle down when no load is present. Not to mention having to listen to the noise of an infernal combustion engine all day, takes all the enjoyment out of working in the woods or other remote site.

I have a 12v impact driver that gets used just as much if not more than my 18v, and would hate to be without it.

If you don't mind me asking, what is it that you do with your compact impact driver? Am I missing a possible use for mine?

[wayneburgess]

The one i have is pretty damn powerful and I use it on everything from driving wood screws to putting in fixings for radiators.

I get the 18v out when i want to drill bigger holes through joists e.g 3 inch by 8 inch and it drives daredevil spade bits or blue groove tri screw drill bits no problem.

Iv'e driven in thousands of screws in the last year with the 12v max and it just keeps going no problem.

Metabo are fast becoming my favourite tools with Milwaukee a close second.

The 12v max has no battery indicator but who cares I just throw the other one in my pocket and rock on.

[Conductor562]

The jig saw would surely do AT LEAST 2 sink cutouts with an XC battery and if I remember right Milwaukee claims 3. The battery life really is better than you think. I use the compact batteries because the give the handle a nice, flush, unrestricted feel, and I have 4 of them. A lot of what I use it for is building primitive furniture a decorative stuff using 1X's. I've also used it cutting out air vents, aluminum thresholds, and other similar chores. I've made a few 2X cuts with it but not enough to give a real report. You aren't going to be fling through 2X's with it, but if your looking to fly through 2X's you wouldn't be using a jig saw. It's not for every job, but I don't remember the last time I used my chorded model. If you already owned an electric body grip model it might be a little harder for the M12 to find it's niche in your line-up, but versus a standard top handle, no comparison.

The rotary tool is compatable with all Dremel accessories. Milwaukee doesn't even make rotary tool accessories. I still buy the Dremel stuff so no worries there. I use mine mostly for rust/corrosion removal and as a light duty cut off tool.

[wayneburgess]

I have heard great things about those M12 red lithium 3ah batteries.

[Eric - TIA]

All I can say is I am hooked on the M12 line. Never thought a 12V would float my boat, but the M12 line is awesome. The Jig saw is awesome. I use that more than my 18V or corded, unless it is a big job. The Multi tool is another winner, but probably wouldn't get if I all ready spent money on the Fien. My other two I use all the time is the M12 hammer drill, which always surprises me and the impact driver. I laid a basement out last weekend and used the heck out of the M12 impact driver. Not sure how many wood studs I attached to the plates, but the balance and power was nice, without the weight.

I was in the same boat Putnam where I thought what they heck can a 12V really do? In my eyes, Milwaukee owns the market. With the High capacity battery, it is that much batter. If your investing in a 12V line, I would suggest buying two or three kits, then the rest bare tools. That is another thing I like about Milwaukee. Any of their tools you can find bare

The Dewalt 12 Max is also nice, but just don't offer a lot of tools in their 12V line, so I figure why bother.

[PutnamEco]

Thanks for the input guys, I'm going to have to take a closer look at some of the 12v tools, particularly the M12 jigsaw. I do have a bunch of other jigsaws (can't have to many tools can you?), but a compact one sounds interesting. If I buy into the system I may look into the camera as well. I think I'll stick with my Dremel branded rotary tool, unless I get a chance to compare it side by side against the Milwaukee, and the Milwaukee is a noticeable improvement.

Anyone comment on the M12 radio? A small light radio could fit into my tool set. Both my LXT and early Rockford Fosgate Milwaukee radios are sometimes more than I want to lug around.

[Conductor562]

I've heard nothing but good things about the M12 radio. I've got the M18. The sound quality is awesome but at certain places in my garage it has some reception issues. It's my understanding the M12 has great reception though.

Eric,

Didn't you guys review the M12?

[wayneburgess]

The only thing that the Milwaukee radio's don't seem to do is also act as a charger like other manufacturers do.

[PutnamEco]

The only thing that the Milwaukee radio's don't seem to do is also act as a charger like other manufacturers do.

I believe only Dewalt and Bosch radios charge batteries, it is my understanding that Stanley Black & Decker, Dewalts parent company holds the patent for radio chargers.

[wayneburgess]

There must be some issue over that because ( without sounding like a Metabo rep) the Metabo radio also charges batteries.

The bit I don't like is The Metabo 18v radio only charges 18v batteries, and the same with the 12v so you have to carry at least one charger as well as your radio onto the job.

[PutnamEco]

There must be some issue over that because ( without sounding like a Metabo rep) the Metabo radio also charges batteries.

The bit I don't like is The Metabo 18v radio only charges 18v batteries, and the same with the 12v so you have to carry at least one charger as well as your radio onto the job.

I wasn’t' aware of the Metabo radio being able to charge, I live in a really rural area and don't get to see many Metabo tools. I have never even seen one of their radios. Dewalt does license their patent to other companies, some are just unwilling to pay.

Looks like a nice radio. It is rather pricey here, and they do say it charges 14.4v batteries as well.

http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/B0069TMSM4

[Eric - TIA]

The Metabo does charge the battery as well. I am not sure how the patent works. In regards to the M12, I love it. I use mine all the time. I can't say I have been in very noisy work conditions. Most of the stuff I do is just about three or four guys working. The sound is pretty good, at least for what I expect out of a 12V. I like that I can plug in my phone and play music from it. Just wish I could control the music on the phone from the radio itself. For a small little radio, it jams. Can't comment on reception because we live about 40 minutes away from Chicago, so everything does come in clear.

[Conductor562]

I live in a little town of about 2,500 people right in the middle between Charleston and Huntington (35 minutes to either) but these hills aren't to swell for radio reception, or any reception for that matter.

[wayneburgess]

I do like the Metabo stuff but I saw the Bosch site radio in action and OMG its an awsome beast.

Thats why I don't just stick with one brand, I think some manufacturers beat everyone with a few things and others do it with something else.

So even though its expensive I end up with a mix.

[PutnamEco]

Thats why I don't just stick with one brand, I think some manufacturers beat everyone with a few things and others do it with something else.

So even though its expensive I end up with a mix.

Same here, I just wish I didn't have to deal with five different chargers all the time.

[Eric - TIA]

That's the killer. There is not a brand that has all the best tools and I don't want 5 different batteries.