Bremon

@Jronman 3.0 don't exist at this point but I suspect they will when they move to 21700 cells. 6.0 has been out for a year or so, they're stupid expensive; for 10% more money I can get a 2-pack of 5.0 instead, and if memory serves the 2500mAh 18650s have a higher discharge rate than 3000mAh, that may have been remedied at this point though.

They'd use the same cells. Same way everyone's 18650 packs went from 3.0 to 4.0 to 5.0 to 6.0 (in some cases) without bulking up. I haven't heard of these coming down the pipe but I know OEMs are pushing forward with higher mAh as always. @Framer joe the 8.25" table saw does well by me, I could take or leave a beast size 10". I don't suspect we will see upgrades to the 791/991, or 887, the tool connect versions seem the same. Hopefully I'm wrong.

I work in a manufacturing plant for modular roof and wall panels. Used to spray foam out in the field, now spray in a shop environment, set up equipment, monitor robots soon lol, as well as different odds and ends at the shop from drywall, to drop anchors, to repairing hydraulic and electric equipment, etc. Currently running a large bandsaw for a few weeks cutting steel for a machinist. Quite a wide variety of tasks and hats so days go quick, the resume covers a fairly broad spectrum and most days I learn something new (which is good considering I've been at it for about ten years, nothing worse than boredom).

Agreed @BMack37 and @HiltiWpg, but on my 996 and 2704 I use packs with 10 cells. I would like to have a 20700/21700 5-cell 3.0+ slim pack.

A fan gets me excited, my red one is pretty crappy; ridgid and I believe Ryobi both have more CFM for less cash. ToolConnect will waste a big chunk of the time I'm sure, but I'm sure we will see the next round of FlexVolt; 10" mitres, 10" hybrid table saw, etc. I'd suspect. I'm sure we will see more hands-on demo of the 20v nailers, etc. Maybe we will get a glimpse of 4.0/12.0 batteries even. I just bought a router so I'd bet money on seeing cordless routers there just to ensure I don't have their latest ?.

@Framer joe, no offence was intended, just an extensive discussion on our difference of opinions ?, if I was out of line I apologize. I would like to see this but I have my doubts, Fuel gear is getting crazy expensive as is. Could be a great way of getting people into the system without having to throw away crappy blow-moulded cases. If you've bought a few kits and already have the beginnings of a system it makes more sense to stay in it. Especially if they want to keep the crazy bananas pricing. I wish Dewalt would leverage TStak and ToughSystem better than just a few pack-in deals a few times a year. I'll be sticking to Wood Owl. Those do look nice though! The old school augers with one cutting edge and reamer...you might as well just punch yourself in the face rather than endure the anticipation of when your drill is going to do it for you ?.

Innovative and game changing are not the same thing, to argue PackOut isn't innovative is laughable, and to paint M12 as gamechanging in the same breath is hilarious. 4 years later they announce brushless tools in their subcompact line that are finally the size of all competitors' 12v tools and that's gamechanging? Who's drinking the koolaid now? "PackOut is average at best" "They have no drawer units" "What is so great, a button to push on the front?" This is about as disingenuous as saying FlexVolt is just a battery that works on most Dewalt tools. Yeah, they destroyed the cheapest Tough box in their demo. It's ok. Admitting their product is better doesn't make the stuff you use any worse than it was before last Wednesday ?. I'd say being "spirited" is preferable to willful ignorance.

Lol yeah any of the organizers would smash to pieces, that's for sure. The DS100 is great, and in my mind has the best seal of any ToughSystem box but I never put them on the top of a stack because of fragility concerns.

I've cracked ToughSystem boxes, and own at least 15 of them. Obviously the DS130 and DS100 are weakest, but the others would certainly take damage from a 25+lb cinder block. Milwaukee's demonstrations are consistently among the most disingenuous tests I've seen in the tool industry. They regularly show their newest off against widely available mid-tier models rather than the competitions latest and greatest. I'm not calling the ToughSystem crappy, I'm saying it's obvious the PackOut system has significant advantages. Where it's pricing fits in the market remains to be seen, but there's no denying it incorporates every advantage every competing system on the market has and minimizes their downsides. If it didn't it would be a poor excuse to be late to the party. To downplay its one-touch latch basically calls out Systainers only advantage as superfluous. It's built at least as ruggedly as the most durable system currently out there, of which I have hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth. To top it off, with its multiple footprints it can integrate the finishing work friendliness of TStak and Systainer with the rough-in ready build quality of the ToughSystem in a single system. To call that mediocre or lacking innovation is to drink so much "koolaid" that you're intoxicated and need a cab.

Haven't you heard @KnarlyCarl? All that matters is that PackOut isn't more diverse than ToughSystem right this minute (even though at launch it will likely be more diverse). A year from now, it won't matter that it could have far more options than ToughSystem, TStak, Systainer, or LBoxx because everyone who needs a storage system will already have one, no future tools will be sold and no children will be born. Late to market, missed the whole damn boat ?.

Totally agree @Tug

Dent vs a crack in the ToughSystem. I know which one I'd prefer. @Framer joe Milwaukee koolaid? Lmao. Have you read my posts here over the past year? It's ok for yellow to not be the best at everything, don't worry. FlexVolt still has "more powa". Do you own any Systainers, or do you just see the price tag and the brands that put tools in them? I own Systainers; they are flimsy plastic boxes. There's a reason they are "shop boxes", and I have seen them on site: used by finishing guys. A framer like you and the crews you describe would obliterate them the first week.

There are definitely cases where cordless just won't cut it, period. All day demo with a cordless Sawzall killing batteries relentlessly every 20 minutes sounds like a great way to burn through 600-700 worth of batteries every year. A grinder you can stall by leaning into it could use X2. A mitre saw you can stall with the slightest amount of lateral pressure on a bevel cut could use X2. Milwaukee's heard-of-but-unseen table saw sure as hell needs to be x2 or it will be a 2731 motor spinning an 8"+ blade that won't handle ripping worth a damn. Cordless SDS for myself is mainly useful for tapcons and drop anchors setting up machinery and pallet racks. Milwaukee's SDS Max with 20 mins of chipping to me sounds like 20 mins of something I'll delegate to someone else, and give them a cord so they can do it longer than 20 mins ?.

X2 doesn't mean you're going to get 36v impact drivers and multitools... you get 36v on tools that are either mainly stationary, or compete in a segment that's typically heavy to begin with; saws, OPE, SDS, etc. The idea that swapping out two batteries at lunch rather than one is such an inconvenience that it isn't worth the power and runtime is laughable, we are getting to the point where all-day runtime isn't unrealistic for a lot of guys.

TStak LBoxx and Systainer are all site boxes aimed at finishing guys as much as they are shop boxes. To say otherwise flies in the face of marketing material by all 3 companies. You even show a stack of drawer units that don't look like they're in your shop lol. Your criticism of the PackOut system is irrational; the things you list as "no big deal" are the exact features that make every other system advantageous, and your only criticism that isn't baseless is price. What is Systainer beyond a flimsy plastic box that costs a lot of money and interlocks with one touch? ToughSystem has an organizer that is the same footprint as everything else: huge. Milwaukee's sizes are far more customizable. "Dewalt has bags that don't interlock"; so does every other manufacturer, but they aren't part of a modular system so those bags and the bungees you use to tie them to your boxes don't really have a place in this conversation. ToughSystem is great "for the price, with lots of room for improvement"; PackOut is that improvement, unfortunately it looks like you're going to have to pay a premium for that improvement.

How does a battery that has roughly 10% more energy than what the competitors will be using at that time offset the competition having 33%-100% more battery cells. That's ignoring the potential advances 20700 could make in amp hours over 21700 with more time on the market. That leaves Milwaukee, in a year or two, in the same spot they're currently in with regards to their competition; less power, less runtime, and a ceiling for potential that's much lower.

18v with 21700 cells won't outdo a more efficient motor with slightly less efficient cells, and if Makita moves to 20700, and with Dewalt already making strides into a X2 system there's just no possible outcome in which 15 21700s outmatch 20-30 20700s without having laughable runtime and a built in frying pan for the eggs you'll be able to cook with the heat off the 18v tool lol. Also worth noting is whether they plan on "sticking with 18v" or "sticking with M18", as those have two different potential connotations.

Ordered another pair of FlexVolt 3.0/9.0, a 1/2" anvil to 1/4" hex adapter so I can use my 2763 to replace my 2704 chuck with the new Rohm, and also ordered a 618pk... looking at router bits I think I'm headed down an expensive path but it's the key to building my better half some furniture she's been asking about for months lol.

I'm sure we'll get a glimpse of that from Makita long before NPS18 lol

Well their core trades for decades have been electrical, plumbing and mechanical so...I'd say they have been expanding. If you do drywall or automotive work then they've come a long way towards appealing to you. If you're a carpenter of any sort then odds are there's less to be excited about but they're attempting to appeal to the trim guys, and with another iteration of nailers and the new 7.25" they'd be doing better. I think people might be expecting too much too soon from Team Red with regards to full size carpentry stuff right now... 18v 18650 cells just won't make that work the way it needs to. Next year with 21700 and X2 platform chasing Dewalt's and Makita's lead we might be pleasantly surprised but with regards to woodworking currently I would say Milwaukee is trying and failing.

Systainers are expensive as hell and weak. TStak are knockoff Systainers. LBoxx is as flimsy as either. ToughSystem is my favorite, but has just as many misses as hits. -Why aren't the removable lid storage of the DS150 compatible with the 3000/400/450? -Why aren't the vertical storage rack of the DS400 more easily integrated into the 300? I realize the slots are there but I destroyed a DS300 by HAND putting one in, "guaranteed tough" my ass. -Why do the drawer units flex with other boxes placed on top of them? -Why aren't the drawer units IP67? Add a gasket and some latches on the sides of the boxes? -Why is quality control so poor that basically all the pressure relief valves are useless because you can force air in and out of the box by pressing on the lid of the box? -Why are the box interlocking clips crappy plastic latches? What does PackOut do right? -Multiple footprints from small parts boxes to Systainer size to ToughSystem size. -Bag compatibility (but that doesn't count, right?). -The one-touch latch/lock system that mimics the simplicity of Systainers. -Potentially an IP67 rating that's worth a damn, depending on the gasket. -Nice looking tie-down points. -The promise of a ton of new layouts, likely including drawers. It's not like ToughSystem launched with the DS100, DS130, DS450, racking system, etc. What Milwaukee is doing wrong is potentially weight (we'll see), potentially price, burning everyone who bought their existing organizers, and worst in my eyes in the giant red colorscheme that screams "buy me!" at Home Depot but screams "steal me!" on site. Oh, but they have Ticks to sell you for that ??.

There's no way in hell M18x2 isn't their future; they get backwards compatibility, "M36" power, and more efficiency with more intelligently designed batteries. They've already found the limits of 18v. Look how easily the Fuel mitre stalls on bevel cuts. For those of us using multiple brands how many times have you seen an overheated battery that doesn't say M18 on it? There's a reason NPS17 had basically 0 high-draw tools revealed. Even the mud mixer, while awesome, is just a tradeoff of RPM for more torque, a more robust gearbox (5 planetary rather than 3?) and a more ergonomic bodystyle.

What does that make TStak, LBoxx, ToughSystem and Systainers in that case? Flaming heaps of mediocrity? ?

At 21 first in construction I did stupid crap like that. At 30... screw that. I've seen and heard too much to be that dumb anymore.

If? ? Hate to be the bearer of bad news but M28 is basically already dead in the sense of getting new tools. Basically you can get batteries from them and that's about it. 21700 cells are 21mm by 70mm, not 700. That's why Tesla/Panasonic ones are just called 2170s. Just like 18650 are 18mm by 65mm. 700mm is more than 2 feet... I think their 18-36v chainsaw is probably dated the day it comes out. Other manufacturers have had time to iterate and improve, I expect a tool that's 3/4 decent like the 10" sliding mitre. The table saw likely won't impress me either, 36v compared to the 120v Max hybrid 10" Dewalt that will likely beat them to market by a wide margin... not holding my breath for any disruptive innovation. What I am looking forward to is continued shrinking of M12 Fuel drivers and impacts, new lighting, them continuing to iterate in areas they are already dominant; right angle drills, impact wrenches of all sizes, reciprocating saws, etc. I'm also a big fan of Milwaukee pushing into new areas where they have little-to-no competition; M12 stapler, M18 heat gun, M12 soldering iron, etc. That stuff has me so excited to spend more money on red again. Stuff like the Fuel Mud Mixer look innovative and convenient as well. The Milwaukee directions I like are the Milwaukee that breaks new ground, and the Milwaukee that competes with itself (my Fuel Sawzall is how old now and is still the king; the M18 Fuel Hackzall looks like it makes all other compact angled recips look like garbage, if they don't do that to themselves *20v Max*). The Milwaukee that makes me look at other brands and alternatives is the Milwaukee that plays catch-up endlessly, shows up so late to the party it can no longer be described as fashionable, and smacks itself in the face like Sideshow Bob walking on rakes; nailers, mitre saw, etc. By the looks of their new 7.25" mitre saw it looks like they pay attention and listen to criticism at least ?. Also very much looking forward to carbide Torch blades, but way more than that I'm so happy I waited on multi-material 3-tooth hole saws and can buy carbide Big Hawgs for that purpose when they launch ?