Milwaukee surge

[jeffmcmillan]

1 hour ago, marsh942 said:

This video is about the makita DTD141 oil impulse driver. The guy in the video mentions the low rating for torque and that its to do with how its measured and that a hydraulic motor is slightly different. I'm not exactly sure but its interesting

 

 

The hydraulic mechanism spreads out the impact energy over a longer time so there's less torque.  You can think about it like a punch vs a shove.  Both can have the same effect but the shove has a much lower force for longer compared to a punch with quick high force.  It's not really about how it's measured as that torque is a bogus spec for impact drivers.  It's really only significant for breaking a bolt loose which is why it's significant for impact wrenches, but for impact drivers the impact energy and IPM matter more.  Measuring torque of an impact driver is like measuring force of a rotary hammer.  Complete bogus.

 

I'll probably make a thread going into more detail on the physics of all this at some point.

 

Speaking of things on HD too early...

[HiltiWpg]

The hydraulic mechanism spreads out the impact energy over a longer time so there's less torque.  You can think about it like a punch vs a shove.  Both can have the same effect but the shove has a much lower force for longer compared to a punch with quick high force.  It's not really about how it's measured as that torque is a bogus spec for impact drivers.  It's really only significant for breaking a bolt loose which is why it's significant for impact wrenches, but for impact drivers the impact energy and IPM matter more.  Measuring torque of an impact driver is like measuring force of a rotary hammer.  Complete bogus.

 

I'll probably make a thread going into more detail on the physics of all this at some point.

 

Speaking of things on HD too early...

Are you actually suggesting that torque is a bogus spec?

I would love to hear which method you use to quantify rotational force.

Since that's exactly what torque is. Or are you suggesting that it's bogus to measure the very thing you buy a tool for? (Output power)

Regardless of what is happening inside the tool, torque is the measure of the rotational output power. Period. Whether you use higher rpm, higher voltage, higher IPM, etc. the tool is measured by its ability to do work.

Hydraulic pressure may have advantages at lower rpms and we know the primary design dramatically reduces acoustics, but you cannot change physics. Spreading out lower torque over longer periods of time will not increase its torque. It just spreads it out over longer periods of time. The torque stays the same.

Punching an object or shoving an object require exactly the same force to overcome a set resistance, time is irrelevant unless you require more work to be done in a shorter period of time.

Whether you punch or shove, it's still all about the turning force. That's torque.

"Torque, moment, or moment of force (see the terminology below) is the tendency of a force to rotate an object about an axis,[1] fulcrum, or pivot. Just as a force is a push or a pull, a torque can be thought of as a twist to an object. Mathematically, torque is defined as the cross product of the vector by which the force's application point is offset relative to the fixed suspension point (distance vector) and the force vector, which tends to produce rotation.

Loosely speaking, torque is a measure of the turning force on an object such as a bolt or a flywheel. For example, pushing or pulling the handle of a wrench connected to a nut or bolt produces a torque (turning force) that loosens or tightens the nut or bolt.

"Torque is defined mathematically as the rate of change of angular momentum of an object. The definition of torque states that one or both of the angular velocity or the moment of inertia of an object are changing. Moment is the general term used for the tendency of one or more applied forces to rotate an object about an axis, but not necessarily to change the angular momentum of the object (the concept which is called torque in physics).[4] For example, a rotational force applied to a shaft causing acceleration, such as a drill bit accelerating from rest, results in a moment called a torque. By contrast, a lateral force on a beam produces a moment (called a bending moment), but since the angular momentum of the beam is not changing, this bending moment is not called a torque. Similarly with any force couple on an object that has no change to its angular momentum, such moment is also not called a torque."

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[KnarlyCarl]

Rob's take on it

 

..

[Daniel Julian]

Is it OneKey?

[Bremon]

No. and Canadian MSRP on that thing is criminal. 

[Mongo]

I guess I am just behind the times.  I still use a Makita Tek gun for screws, drywall, and for the killer driver app: deck screws.  It is variable torque, variable speed (up to 2500, not 4000 like drywall drivers), and variable depth. 

 

I can set the torque so that I don't twist off gummy stainless steel deck screws, or mung their heads.

 

Yep, I get the advantages of having some impact, but this thing is simple, and has lasted for probably a million or more screws.  I wish I could get one like it, with a battery...and maybe soft impact.

 

So the question is, when will manufactures offer detachable snouts for variable depth?

When will manufacturers offer variable torque (which in this case Milwaukee has, in an uncalibrated fashion)?

 

[JimboS1ice]

I guess I am just behind the times.  I still use a Makita Tek gun for screws, drywall, and for the killer driver app: deck screws.  It is variable torque, variable speed (up to 2500, not 4000 like drywall drivers), and variable depth. 

 

I can set the torque so that I don't twist off gummy stainless steel deck screws, or mung their heads.

 

Yep, I get the advantages of having some impact, but this thing is simple, and has lasted for probably a million or more screws.  I wish I could get one like it, with a battery...and maybe soft impact.

 

So the question is, when will manufactures offer detachable snouts for variable depth?

When will manufacturers offer variable torque (which in this case Milwaukee has, in an uncalibrated fashion)?

 

Dewalt is coming out with a torque limiting screw gun for metal fastening


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[Mongo]

32 minutes ago, JimboS1ice said:

Dewalt is coming out with a torque limiting screw gun for metal fastening
 

Good to know.  I will look for it.  I wish Dewalt would answer the Milwaukee 2731 7.25" circular saw with a 20V unit.  I love the Milwaukee, but just can't add another type of battery. (Sorry I am drifting off topic, but the circular saw frustration is a big hot button for me.)

[JimboS1ice]

Good to know.  I will look for it.  I wish Dewalt would answer the Milwaukee 2731 7.25" circular saw with a 20V unit.  I love the Milwaukee, but just can't add another type of battery. (Sorry I am drifting off topic, but the circular saw frustration is a big hot button for me.)

Highly unlikely with the flex volt, part of my dewalt frustration which turned me full on red


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[Mongo]

3 minutes ago, JimboS1ice said:

Highly unlikely with the flex volt, part of my dewalt frustration which turned me full on red
 

Well, my frustration is growing.  I have short patience for the "now everyone will buy new batteries when the music stops" game.

[JimboS1ice]

Well, my frustration is growing.  I have short patience for the "now everyone will buy new batteries when the music stops" game.

That's why I dumped dewalt, didn't like being forced in a new battery for the extra power when Milwaukee already has many high powered brushless options


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[Bremon]

Dewalt told me she never loved you anyway Jimbo 

[HiltiWpg]

I would love to see a nice, real-world comparison between the surge and a comparable fuel impact. Or Makita etc.
I understand it's a smoother torque. I understand it's really good sustained torque for small-medium fasteners. What I don't understand is why I need it!
Aside from acoustics, I would love to see the practical benefits for an electrician.
I am not really sure about the precision differences. I would love to see a video driving some #8-12 tek screws into some mild steel etc.
Everyone seems to be raving about how quiet and lightweight they are. I will spend money on tools without much thought, but for some reason I can't grasp why this is better for me, as an electrician.

In a typical day, I use my Impact for tek screws, tapcons, shockwave knock out saws, low torque trim work, removing fasteners, nuts etc. I like the versatility.
Even if it's close enough for 80% of what I do, I think I can justify trying one out.
I like smaller and lighter. Quieter, that's the icing on the cake.

Jimbo, you're up!
Make it happen!


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[KnarlyCarl]

They have announced a OneKey Surge is in the making.

Admittedly, I'm with @HiltiWpg as well as being underwhelmed by the Surge.... Makita had their oil impact for a year or so, and in typical Milwaukee marketing fashion, they come out with this like they invented the technology.... And then it doesn't even surpass the Makita. They each have their turn though .. Milwaukee fuel sawzall has been out for 3 years and only just now has Makita come out with a BL recip which is still second to the sawzall.... We should expect that from Milwaukee tho.... they did invent that much

[Bremon]

I'll likely get the surge. Don't want another battery platform and in 3 years when Dewalt's comes out it will be bigger than the Ridgid and need a FlexVolt battery (or NextVolt). 

[jeffmcmillan]

1 hour ago, KnarlyCarl said:

They have announced a OneKey Surge is in the making.

Admittedly, I'm with @HiltiWpg as well as being underwhelmed by the Surge.... Makita had their oil impact for a year or so, and in typical Milwaukee marketing fashion, they come out with this like they invented the technology.... And then it doesn't even surpass the Makita. They each have their turn though .. Milwaukee fuel sawzall has been out for 3 years and only just now has Makita come out with a BL recip which is still second to the sawzall.... We should expect that from Milwaukee tho.... they did invent that much

Hey at least it has less vibration than makita's 10 year old gen 1 impulse driver...unlike ridgid.

 

I'm with you underwhelmed guys. It didn't deserve the hype of simultaneous announcements from every tool reviewer. That said its 3/4 the price of makita and might go down to half with sales in a month.

[glass]

y 'all are upset by the surge hype but buy into the one key crap ?  lol !

[jeffmcmillan]

16 hours ago, glass said:

y 'all are upset by the surge hype but buy into the one key crap ?  lol !

I think it's the same people underwhelmed by both. At least I am.  One-key feels almost like they intend to have DLC but that's a story for another thread.

 

Anyway to each his own.

[JimboS1ice]

I would love to see a nice, real-world comparison between the surge and a comparable fuel impact. Or Makita etc.
I understand it's a smoother torque. I understand it's really good sustained torque for small-medium fasteners. What I don't understand is why I need it!
Aside from acoustics, I would love to see the practical benefits for an electrician.
I am not really sure about the precision differences. I would love to see a video driving some #8-12 tek screws into some mild steel etc.
Everyone seems to be raving about how quiet and lightweight they are. I will spend money on tools without much thought, but for some reason I can't grasp why this is better for me, as an electrician.

In a typical day, I use my Impact for tek screws, tapcons, shockwave knock out saws, low torque trim work, removing fasteners, nuts etc. I like the versatility.
Even if it's close enough for 80% of what I do, I think I can justify trying one out.
I like smaller and lighter. Quieter, that's the icing on the cake.

Jimbo, you're up!
Make it happen!


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Send me a surge! Lol and might as well the makita impulse too

I'm just not sold on it, not much quieter then a standard impact and although the behemoth RIDGID with its terrible feedback is a rather quiet tool, it's cooltech but needs to hit the drawing board, maybe this should only be for big HD impacts


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[KnarlyCarl]

On 10/14/2016 at 5:55 AM, glass said:

y 'all are upset by the surge hype but buy into the one key crap ?  lol !

Lol the naïve is strong with this one...

One, I don't get upset over tools, I save that for my son when he misses the toilet and makes a mess on the floor...

Two, the apples and oranges comparison you are trying to make is just that, 2 different things entirely, we have software vs hardware. I acknowledge when it seems like a company hasn't reached the expectations I had in mind, but also realize in this case, I haven't used the Surge personally, so what do I know.

You have not used either one key or the Surge so you have no say in the matter. 

I'm sure festool is amazing but I have to refrain from immediately dismissing them as overpriced tools, having never personally tried them. 

I think the only thing I'm upset about is your complete lack of personal experience with either the above mentioned items while trying to sound like you know what you're talking about. 

Had to call you out on this one, get back to us when you have used both items.

[wildroamer]

I thought Rob Robillard's video comparing the Surge to the Fuel was fairly compelling, actually. Looked like it was faster in all his tests, and much quieter.

 

Can't wait to try Dewalt 's version when they come out with it in 2020.

[HiltiWpg]

I thought Rob Robillard's video comparing the Surge to the Fuel was fairly compelling, actually. Looked like it was faster in all his tests, and much quieter.

 

Can't wait to try Dewalt 's version when they come out with it in 2020.

Watch the video again, the Fuel Impact was on 2nd speed/torque setting. I get that he is sponsored, but come on, my M12 is faster than that.


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[JerryNY]

1 hour ago, HiltiWpg said:

Watch the video again, the Fuel Impact was on 2nd speed/torque setting. I get that he is sponsored, but come on, my M12 is faster than that.


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I was surprised to read that. Rob seems like a stand up guy and gives an honest real world experience based opinion in my opinion. I went back over the video and watched it frame by frame. There were bad reflections but on close inspection the third light in both tools were lit up. It appears to be a One Key model impact which has four numeric positions:

 

 

That being said I'm fine with my current impact but there's a lot to be said for constant torque in lieu of peak.  Look at all the small displacement turbocharged cars today that have maximum torque from like 1500-4500 RPM's.  They might give up something in peak numbers but all that torque over the wide range you spend most of your time in isn't a bad thing...

[HiltiWpg]

I think sustained torque and a quieter tool isn't bad either. It just seems like an odd way to present a head-to-head comparison.
The 2nd highest torque/speed setting (3rd from left) is maxed out at 2100 rpm. Quite a bit lower speed and torque than the tool is capable of. (3000 rpm / 1800 in-lbs)
Having a rigged or lop-sided comparison seems suspect.

Even the TiA test with the Milwaukee rep was a little one sided, they used an entry level impact instead of the fuel to compare against the Surge. It seems highly questionable.

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[JerryNY]

49 minutes ago, HiltiWpg said:

I think sustained torque and a quieter tool isn't bad either. It just seems like an odd way to present a head-to-head comparison.
The 2nd highest torque/speed setting (3rd from left) is maxed out at 2100 rpm. Quite a bit lower speed and torque than the tool is capable of. (3000 rpm / 1800 in-lbs)
Having a rigged or lop-sided comparison seems suspect.

Even the TiA test with the Milwaukee rep was a little one sided, they used an entry level impact instead of the fuel to compare against the Surge. It seems highly questionable.

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You might have nisunderstood my post. The video shows he is using the 3rd setting on both drivers. The One Key has an actual 4 numerical setting and if you look at the video you can see it is set to the 3rd which is actually maximum power. The 4th setting on that impact is default to the self tapping mode or programmable to whatever you want. Non One Key impacts and the surge have a 4th setting which is the self tapping mode but is designated with an icon and not a numeral 4. The One Key impact in Rob's test looks like it was indeed set to the 3rd and most powerful setting as far as I can tell. I can see why it appears to be a setting lower if you aren't 100% noticing the difference between a One Key and regular impact. Below is a closeup of the One Key and its four numerical modes: