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FUEL vs Non-FUEL


Andrewcanada

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wondering what everyone thought of fuel tools vs basemodels for the price, in my opinion fuel is a must for some tools where power/performance are drastically affected and just a luxury.unnecessary on other tools. i got quite a few milwuakee tools fuel and non fuel, the circ saw and grinder need to be brushless imo but the drill and impact gun work fine with a brushed motor and are half the price

 

i got a brushed angle grinder a few motnhs back and it had little power always stalling and got untouchably hot after only a 3ah battery, it burnt up and let the smoke up in under a month, when i took it into homedepot for warrantty they had none left and the guy actually upgraded me for free to the fuel grinder, huge difference its hard to stall the fuel and it barely gets warm, it can also fit a 5 inch disc which is nice cause thats becoming more common than 4.5s

 

whats everyone elses opinion on fuel vs nonfuel, would it make a difference in nut busting torque on the impact guns? impact gun is what im looking for next a little pricey but itll complete my red kit

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As a pro, there's no way that I'm buying a brushed cordless tool unless there is no brushless option, and even then I have to force myself. It makes a difference on all of the tools, it's just more obvious with some. There's no way my drills would do what I asked of them if they weren't Fuel. If I were a DIY'er though - a serious one - I'd probably go brushless in the few tools that I really use, augmented with US-made low-use corded stuff off of Craigs - a $40 20-year old Porter Cable circular saw or Milwaukee Sawzall is going to beat a $100 brushed cordless model every day of the week.

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I recently picked up some brushed drills and was quickly reminded of how nice a decent brushed machine can be. Most of my kit is BL, they're great tools, but do lack the smooth low end speeds that brushed can deliver. 

 

I also have a Ryobi brushed impact and it's definitely my favourite/go to driver. 

 

As you've said, not all machines benefit from being BL. Your grinder reference is a key point. Also worth mentioning that the electronics in BL machines is far more complex and therefore more prone to failure. 

 

If you need the ability to drive small screws with total control, I'd say brushed. If you're only interested in all out power, BL. 

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well I put my FUEL grinder to the test last few days cutting out for new windows, with a 9.0ah battery on it I didn't even think about battery power or lack of with a battery. standing on top of scaffolding 4 sections high cutting 3/4" cement with a diamond blade.  I don't have any brushed Milwaukee tools all of mine are Fuel and I do strongly believe they are worth every extra penny......I may not be using my tools for making a living like some do but my time is worth something to me and having tools that work is too

20170917_151235.jpg

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I think for a professional the extra run time alone of a brushless tool is beneficial.  But for a home owner or diy guy who has to charge a 1.5 or even a 5.0 once a week I don't necessarily see the benefit on some tools.  Its already been stated but the electronics in a brushless tool are more complicated.  Unlike a brushed tool where you can replace a trigger or bushes for probably under $30, I just had my fuel rotary hammer take a crap, pull the trigger and nothing , the only fix is a $105 electronics assembly which has a trigger, all the wiring, and part of the motor. 

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Don’t buy into the hype.

To say that all brushless tools are better simply because they are brushless is BS.

The losses that occur through brushes and the commutator are the biggest drain on runtime and efficiency. Most notably with 2 pole motors.

The newer 4 pole brushed motors are offering almost the same runtime and power.

Losses occur through tool electronics too, like brushless tools have. Especially cheaply made tools that are capitalizing on the Brushless Hype Train. Bluetooth isn’t energy free!

 

Brushless tools don’t handle heat, dust, moisture or cold as well as a brushed either.

They also cost more to own long term, and cannot be easily repaired. Brushes can be replaced in minutes.

On linear loads, there is very little benefit to brushless.

 

Buy what you like, but don’t buy it just because it’s brushless.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

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And to be clear, I am not saying that Brushless sucks or you shouldn’t buy it. It may not be worth the additional cost to you.

There are some tools that benefit greatly from brushless motors and precision electronics, like Impact Drivers and Torque wrenches.

 

You would never be able to tell the difference in runtime or power between a similar quality 4 Pole Drill and a Brushless drill.

 

 

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As far as impact wrenches are concerned I would look at what it's rated torque is not so much brushless or not.  It just so happens that the newest high torque impacts are brushless. 

 

I have what was a high torque brushed 2653.  It has the same torque specs as the new mid torque and has very similar performance but it's closer in size and weight of the current high torque impact wrenches which have almost double the torque.  I've never really done any runtime testing with these bigger impacts because my applications don't really require it. 

 

If you're talking compact impact wrenches I don't think there's a big difference in torque either other than their ratings but I do notice in a production setting where you're tightening thousands of bolts at a time, the brushless out runs the brushed pretty easily. 

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On 10/1/2017 at 1:20 AM, HiltiWpg said:

 

Brushless tools don’t handle heat, dust, moisture or cold as well as a brushed either.

They also cost more to own long term, and cannot be easily repaired. Brushes can be replaced in minutes.

On linear loads, there is very little benefit to brushless.

 

Hey hilti ! Want some input from you. Do brushless motors not work in higher or lower temps then a brushed version ? First I hear of that :)

 

With all electronics in high end brushless tools podded in epoxy or coated in silicone. Do you think they still handle moisture more badly then a brushed tool ? :)

 

Thanks for your input !

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Hey hilti ! Want some input from you. Do brushless motors not work in higher or lower temps then a brushed version ? First I hear of that [emoji4]
 
With all electronics in high end brushless tools podded in epoxy or coated in silicone. Do you think they still handle moisture more badly then a brushed tool ? [emoji4]
 
Thanks for your input !

The moisture effects the non-potted stuff for sure, which unfortunately is quite a bit of the tool.
Switches, speed/torque selectors etc. The heat issues effect potted as well.
We are often working in +35c weather and using a tool all day really takes its toll. They get nuclear hot.
Nothing like the smell of nuked MOSFET!
Most of the time you blame that on tool abuse though.

Rain really messed up a few drills, but the brushed ones don’t seem to care about being wet. Brushless seems to get angry when there is water inside.

As for low temp, the Milwaukee stuff is the only manufacturer we ever had issues with in the cold. They just refused to work. They are good to around -20c though. We often see temps below -35c.


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1 hour ago, HiltiWpg said:


The moisture effects the non-potted stuff for sure, which unfortunately is quite a bit of the tool.
Switches, speed/torque selectors etc. The heat issues effect potted as well.
We are often working in +35c weather and using a tool all day really takes its toll. They get nuclear hot.
Nothing like the smell of nuked MOSFET!
Most of the time you blame that on tool abuse though.

Rain really messed up a few drills, but the brushed ones don’t seem to care about being wet. Brushless seems to get angry when there is water inside.

As for low temp, the Milwaukee stuff is the only manufacturer we ever had issues with in the cold. They just refused to work. They are good to around -20c though. We often see temps below -35c.


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 95 degree days are nothing to sneeze at, though I remember a few 120+ degree days in Phoenix back in my youth.  -30 (f) however is insane.  What are you doing outside in that weather?

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 95 degree days are nothing to sneeze at, though I remember a few 120+ degree days in Phoenix back in my youth.  -30 (f) however is insane.  What are you doing outside in that weather?

Electrician.

 

Power can’t wait for nice weather!

 

We do hit 40+ degrees Celsius from time to time, but the humidity is what gets you around here.

 

 

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On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 7:42 AM, comp56 said:

well I put my FUEL grinder to the test last few days cutting out for new windows, with a 9.0ah battery on it I didn't even think about battery power or lack of with a battery. standing on top of scaffolding 4 sections high cutting 3/4" cement with a diamond blade.  I don't have any brushed Milwaukee tools all of mine are Fuel and I do strongly believe they are worth every extra penny......I may not be using my tools for making a living like some do but my time is worth something to me and having tools that work is too

20170917_151235.jpg

Do you notice any additional power with the 9.0 battery?

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11 hours ago, BK13 said:

Do you notice any additional power with the 9.0 battery?

I just picked up my first 9.0 a few weeks ago and was pleasantly suprised at the additional power it gives the fuel grinder.  It's still not the dewalt 60v but it's a noticeable power difference from a 5.0.  

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I can't compare it to any kind of DeWalt tool but I can say if I start the day with a fully charged 9.0Ah battery for the grinder the last thing I think about is looking for a battery all day. And yes there seems to be a bit more power when a 9.0Ah is used. If the 60V Dewalt is better than this Fuel grinder with a 9.0Ah battery then that DeWalt 60V must be awesome...

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For me a fuel grinder with a 5.0 was good enough to no longer carry a corded but it wasn't truly a corded replacement it was just good enough to compromise some power.  Now the dewalt 60v I would say is truly a corded replacement when it comes to power but it has size and weight to go with it.  Run time of the fuel with a 5.0 and the 60v with a 6.0/2.0 are very similar.   I have a 3.0/9.0 flexvolt but ive never put it on my 60v grinder and I haven't done any real grinding with the fuel and 9.0 to compare thier runtimes.  I've been told the best power runtime and ergonomics is the metabo but I still like to think I control my addiction so I don't own one yet.

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For me a fuel grinder with a 5.0 was good enough to no longer carry a corded but it wasn't truly a corded replacement it was just good enough to compromise some power.  Now the dewalt 60v I would say is truly a corded replacement when it comes to power but it has size and weight to go with it.  Run time of the fuel with a 5.0 and the 60v with a 6.0/2.0 are very similar.   I have a 3.0/9.0 flexvolt but ive never put it on my 60v grinder and I haven't done any real grinding with the fuel and 9.0 to compare thier runtimes.  I've been told the best power runtime and ergonomics is the metabo but I still like to think I control my addiction so I don't own one yet.

Metabo is a beast


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Metabo has the best balance between power and runtime. Definitely the more efficient of the two.. DeWalt flexvolt has significantly more power. I'll bet in a head to head comparison a lot of reviewers would call the flexvolt the winner. No runtime though. I had both and always used the Metabo because you could a lot more work on one battery with the Metabo. That and I had 8 Metabo batteries and only one fv. Metabo had best ergonomics. Fuel grinder is great and I know loads of people who successfully get their job done with it. It's not a good fit for me though. I guess this isn't too terribly relevant, sorry I got off topic a little.

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