Are tools overpriced?

[regopit]

Today my friend Ike (the cabinetmaker) and I where install a front door that he had made for a costumer of mine and I pulled out my bargain table RYOBI 18v caulking gun. He asks why I bought it. Why not, for $15.00, I could not pass it up and the Milwaukee is $190.00. Then we got to talking about the price of tools and if we get our money’s worth. I ask him if his Festool tools are overpriced. He said that they are great tools but feels that most of their tools are overpriced. He pointed out the Domino XL joiner fantastic tool but not $1275.00 fantastic and you have to use their cutters $50 /$60 a pop and the tenon’s are $50/$95 a pack and some packs have 18 others have 100 depends on the size. Track saw not bad sorry he bought the Miter saw likes his DeWalt and Bosch more and the routers, good but other brands are just as good, and he really likes their sanders and vac’s.

 

Then he was talking about his father using a homemade table saw and hand drills in the shop for years and did beautiful work. It is not always the tools that make the job; it has a lot to do with the person using the tools.

 

That started a lively conversation. 

[NicholasShetley]

I feel that tools like snap on or festool are like status symbols, there are ones that are just as good for far cheaper. I feel that for some tools you also pay for the brand name as well.

[firefighter4187]

Powertools are just an extensions of our hands. I just like my extensions to be top of the line haha. Personally for me, where i do more jobsite out in the field jobs for customers....I would never....ever buy a festool. It is a fantastic tool for precise woodworking and thats it. It is not a jobsite worthy tool in my opinion.

[ChrisK]

Interesting topic Regopit. My girlfriend Samantha, bought me the T55 Plunge Saw from Festool with the track. I watched the review Eric and Dan did of the Festool Carvex jigsaw and bought it last week. The tools are wickedly expensive and I don't make a living using them. Samantha bought me the saw unbeknownst to me after she listened to me watch a review and when we were in Woodcraft a couple of months ago. I bought the jig saw because I HATED my Bosch' blade change on my jig saw and the quality is absolutely amazing. I am a total Milwaukee guy and this is an amazing set of tools I now have. As far as my Bosch jig saw...I sold it on CL after I bought the Carvex. The things I can do with these two saws are absolutely amazing and I have a tiny workshop with very limited room. I can now cut sheet goods right in my workshop instead of having the hardware store cut it down to rough size for me. The Carvex was $70 more than the Bosch I wanted but the additional pieces you can put on the machine are impressive. Now on to the additional kit. $200 buys you a Systainer and several different bases plus a circle cutter. $200 bucks! The clamps for the track on my Festool T55...$40! A bag to hold the tracks...a HUNDRED BUCKS!!!!! Anyways I totally agree with you and when I buy my cordless RYOBI brad nailer there will be a reason for it. Quality tool, passed Eric and Dan's test and it is really inexpensive. My Festools will last a life time though!

[ChrisK]

Powertools are just an extensions of our hands. I just like my extensions to be top of the line haha. Personally for me, where i do more jobsite out in the field jobs for customers....I would never....ever buy a festool. It is a fantastic tool for precise woodworking and thats it. It is not a jobsite worthy tool in my opinion.

Hey Chase, A Concord Carpenter did a really interesting review of the Festool T18+3 Drill driver. The tool far exceeds most things that are going to be thrown at it I it's lifetime. I will say the price for the kit is over six hundred bucks though! Anyways the tool, like all Festool tools, are designed for extreme use and are designed to last many many years.mmthe video he does on his website is amazing as to the abuse that thing puts up with, keep in mind it's over Six Hundred freakin' bucks!!!! As far as my tools. They'll be shop tools. When I'm at the barn I'll bring my Milwaukee's. Plus I don't want my good stuff getting stolen!

[firefighter4187]

Interesting topic Regopit. My girlfriend Samantha, bought me the T55 Plunge Saw from Festool with the track. I watched the review Eric and Dan did of the Festool Carvex jigsaw and bought it last week. The tools are wickedly expensive and I don't make a living using them. Samantha bought me the saw unbeknownst to me after she listened to me watch a review and when we were in Woodcraft a couple of months ago. I bought the jig saw because I HATED my Bosch' blade change on my jig saw and the quality is absolutely amazing. I am a total Milwaukee guy and this is an amazing set of tools I now have. As far as my Bosch jig saw...I sold it on CL after I bought the Carvex. The things I can do with these two saws are absolutely amazing and I have a tiny workshop with very limited room. I can now cut sheet goods right in my workshop instead of having the hardware store cut it down to rough size for me. The Carvex was $70 more than the Bosch I wanted but the additional pieces you can put on the machine are impressive. Now on to the additional kit. $200 buys you a Systainer and several different bases plus a circle cutter. $200 bucks! The clamps for the track on my Festool T55...$40! A bag to hold the tracks...a HUNDRED BUCKS!!!!! Anyways I totally agree with you and when I buy my cordless RYOBI brad nailer there will be a reason for it. Quality tool, passed Eric and Dan's test and it is really inexpensive. My Festools will last a life time though!

I totally agree, buying these tools are a must for a super quality finish in furniture making and woodworking. I just dont understand where there prices come from, like you said, for a bag 100$!!!!!!! But for a woodworker like you that willl be using them all the time in there shop, it is worth it. I dont think i have heard, what id festools warranty, and also i wish Milwaukee would give the cordless nailer a shot!

[ChrisK]

Yeah me too Chase. But I'll give the Ryobi a shot. I totally agree with those prices. For the tools, having seen the quality firsthand, I get it. For the accessories, ARE YOU FREAKIN' kid din' me?!?!?!?!?! The warranty it pretty solid, at least what I've seen on paper but I know Milwaukee's warranty is awesome. I hope I don't ever have a problem with my tools. I will buy the vac at some point and a finish sander but that will probably be it. My Milwaukee and PC routers are phenomenal and cannot see spending the extra cash.

[RedSionnach]

For me it depends on use and quality. For me any money spent on things like electric grease guns, caulking guns, pipe cutters is foolish. My manual tools work just fine for the amount I use them. If I were more into woodworking, I would want top notch tools; Festool isn't worth the investment for me. When I was logging I tore through 5 pairs of Carhartt pants in my first half season so, after asking around, I sprung almost $400 on two pair of Filson tin pants. They were worth every penny, I made it through 5 seasons with them and they were just broken in, plus I resold them for $200. For most folks that would be an insane amount of money for work pants, for me it actually saved me money. Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you pay for a name, hopefully when you balance out price, usage, and quality you get what you need. Of course if money isn't an object then you can buy for status whether it's quality or not.

Then there is the fact that no matter the quality of your gear, it doesn't make you better or worse than the next guy, what matters is if you have the skills.

[ChrisK]

Amen to that Red. Couldn't agree more. That's why I'll continue on with my Milwaukee tools and spring for the Ryobi nailer. Sounds like a great tool, will fit the jobs I want for it and it won't cost me my other arm. Plus it's lime green.

[djslater]

ChrisK, and Red, totally agree!

 

One thing everyone can relate to, is the quality of cars. When Hyundai was first coming into the market, they were a loss-leader (cheap prices to gain market share).

 

The little known fact, was Hyundai was manufacturing HEAVY DUTY Freight Ships to carry 90% of Chinese made products to America....what an interconnected world!

 

If a company can manufacture Million Dollar Freighter Ships, and be the leader in that industry, they can probably engineer a good car. Hence, Hyundai won JD Power and Associates awards like clockwork...then they became more popular when they started making noise.

 

How does this relate to tools?.. TTI

 

TTI, like may of you know, is the OEM for Milwaukee Tools, and Ryobi (I believe they make for RIGID also???) In any case, that's at the entry-level, and high-end of the market. While I understand that Milwaukee, and Ryboi create/design their respective tools, the designs go to TTI to put together with the SPECed out materials....

 

Food for thought.

[firefighter4187]

ChrisK, and Red, totally agree!

 

One thing everyone can relate to, is the quality of cars. When Hyundai was first coming into the market, they were a loss-leader (cheap prices to gain market share).

 

The little known fact, was Hyundai was manufacturing HEAVY DUTY Freight Ships to carry 90% of Chinese made products to America....what an interconnected world!

 

If a company can manufacture Million Dollar Freighter Ships, and be the leader in that industry, they can probably engineer a good car. Hence, Hyundai won JD Power and Associates awards like clockwork...then they became more popular when they started making noise.

 

How does this relate to tools?.. TTI

 

TTI, like may of you know, is the OEM for Milwaukee Tools, and Ryobi (I believe they make for RIGID also???) In any case, that's at the entry-level, and high-end of the market. While I understand that Milwaukee, and Ryboi create/design their respective tools, the designs go to TTI to put together with the SPECed out materials....

 

Food for thought.

I like that with TTI, all three brands are different, they arnt just rebranded with a sticker slapped on like stanley b&d does with some of there lines.Also hyundai manufactures alot of semi trailers.

[firefighter4187]

Yeah me too Chase. But I'll give the Ryobi a shot. I totally agree with those prices. For the tools, having seen the quality firsthand, I get it. For the accessories, ARE YOU FREAKIN' kid din' me?!?!?!?!?! The warranty it pretty solid, at least what I've seen on paper but I know Milwaukee's warranty is awesome. I hope I don't ever have a problem with my tools. I will buy the vac at some point and a finish sander but that will probably be it. My Milwaukee and PC routers are phenomenal and cannot see spending the extra cash.

Then again for the quality you are paying for, warranty should not be a worry. Also the Ryobi nailer, are you talking about the airstrike?

[ChrisK]

That's the one Chase. Eric and Dan did a really good review on the tool and it's clearly a decent machine. I've got an air compressor but it scares the bejezus out of my dog and I figure I might want to look at it. Plus there a couple of other Ryobi tools I wouldn't mind having around to take to the farm.

[firefighter4187]

That's the one Chase. Eric and Dan did a really good review on the tool and it's clearly a decent machine. I've got an air compressor but it scares the bejezus out of my dog and I figure I might want to look at it. Plus there a couple of other Ryobi tools I wouldn't mind having around to take to the farm.

Yeah i have heard great things about the airstrike, there are a alot of cool tools in the one+ line. 

[Javier]

I think so but I also think some are worth their price but at some point the higher the price with some brands there is a point of diminishing returns.

My opinion for the festool tools is that they probably are over priced but then again I've never seen one or used one in person

But then again they are a "system" and to some people that really matters and is worth the extra price

I also realize that many expensive tools are not worth their sum in parts but you have to factor in all the research and development costs that went into designing that particular tool

[regopit]

For me it depends on use and quality. For me any money spent on things like electric grease guns, caulking guns, pipe cutters is foolish. My manual tools work just fine for the amount I use them.

 

I get what you are saying. I would chuckle every time I would see a 18v caulking gun. Then we had a job replacing 50 windows 82" x 42" That $15.00 RYOBI Came in real handy. If I had to pay $190 for the Milwaukee my helper would have had sore hands by the end of the day.

 

Tools are one of those things you can never have to many of. My wife ask me do you really need all of those nail guns when I was taken pictures for my insurance, and I ask her to define need.

[ChrisK]

I think so but I also think some are worth their price but at some point the higher the price with some brands there is a point of diminishing returns.

My opinion for the festool tools is that they probably are over priced but then again I've never seen one or used one in person

But then again they are a "system" and to some people that really matters and is worth the extra price

I also realize that many expensive tools are not worth their sum in parts but you have to factor in all the research and development costs that went into designing that particular tool

I think in order to pass judgement on the tool brand you should really take the time to get the feel for one. Once you try the tool my girlfriend bought for me, for instance, you realize that "hey, this brushless saw that makes absolutely perfect finish cuts in an absolute perfectly straight line while allowing me to finally cut sheet goods In a Tightly confined work space to make furniture or whatever" is worth it. Then to add to that by spending $350 on jig saw that is for all intents and purposes, one of the finest made brushless jig saws with tons of expansion possibilities and make top quality cuts might be worth it too. Spending 1200 on a souped up biscuit cutter....well maybe I'd have a hard time doing that but my friend Tom only uses Festool in his cabinet shop and buys his tools once. Period. In his opinion, there is no more durable or finely made machine on the planet. I am tending to agree with him with my limited line exposure to Festool. But I do know the other lines quite well and the T55 with track is not much more expensive than the Dewalt or the Makita. I guess you have to make the choice on an individual level. I'll keep my Festools, enjoy them immensely and use my M18 Impact driver (the finest one out there in my opinion - thank you Milwaukee) to drive my lags, shoot screws and look pretty while it's doing it! It'll be funny at some point this summer, I'll have to take a picture of my Festool tools, my Milwaukee's and hopefully my Ryobi nailer too.

[Conductor562]

I have some perspective to add. I look at old catalogs all the time. Mostly Plomb/Proto, but occasionally others. The other day I was looking at a Craftsman catalog from the late 50's and was shocked at the prices of tools. As hard as this may be to believe, many items can be purchased today for the same price as it was in 1959. I'm speaking mostly of hand tools and believe they are more affordable now than they've ever been.

As far as the brands that are more than all the others such as Snap-On, there is sometimes justification for the prices, and sometimes not. DJ is on the right track. Every full line tool manufacturer rebrands items made by someone else. Snap-On is no exception. There is a company called Kastar. One of the products they are known for is their thread chaser set. Kastar sets are sold under several brand name including Craftsman and Snap-On. The Set with the Craftsman sticker on the box is like $60. The exact same set, from the exact same line, in the exact same factory, with a Snap-On sticker on the front is $130 off the truck. If you're buying a tool off a tool truck you are getting fucked.

The Proto impact I reviewed is $289 online. The exact same gun with a Mac logo on it is $450 on the truck.

Cornwell pliers are Channellocks. even use the same model numbers.

I'm not sure if Matco makes any of their own shit anymore.

A company called Stride/Imperial makes 90% of the retaining ring pliers made in America, but you'll find wildly varying prices for the exact same pliers.

Thinking about a Kobalt ratchet? Go buy a Titan or possibly Tekton branded ratchet for half the money. All are made by a company in Taiwan called Rotar who also makes Toptul.

Ever heard of Western Forge? They are owned by Ideal (SK's parent company) and make tools for damn near everyone. They make about every Craftsman tool that's still worth having. Their about the only company left still making adjustable wrenches in America. Walk around Sears one day, find the dozen or so items still made in America, and look for a WF stamp on it somewhere. Now you'll know what it means. WF doesn't sell their own brand, but a lot of different companies sell their shit for varying prices.

I can go on all day boys. When it comes to hand tools, it pays to do your homework.

[regopit]

The Festool track saw is the best by far the way the plunge works and the way it glides on the track is second to none. 

 

Starting tomorrow the Wood Workers show rolls into town for 3 days and all of the tool reps will be here so I should have a good time of it Friday afternoon. I'm leaving the credit cards  and cash at home. Well that's what I'm tell the wife 

[ChrisK]

Hahahahaha good luck with that Regopit! Hopefully the storm is gone!

[firefighter4187]

I have some perspective to add. I look at old catalogs all the time. Mostly Plomb/Proto, but occasionally others. The other day I was looking at a Craftsman catalog from the late 50's and was shocked at the prices of tools. As hard as this may be to believe, many items can be purchased today for the same price as it was in 1959. I'm speaking mostly of hand tools and believe they are more affordable now than they've ever been.

As far as the brands that are more than all the others such as Snap-On, there is sometimes justification for the prices, and sometimes not. DJ is on the right track. Every full line tool manufacturer rebrands items made by someone else. Snap-On is no exception. There is a company called Kastar. One of the products they are known for is their thread chaser set. Kastar sets are sold under several brand name including Craftsman and Snap-On. The Set with the Craftsman sticker on the box is like $60. The exact same set, from the exact same line, in the exact same factory, with a Snap-On sticker on the front is $130 off the truck. If you're buying a tool off a tool truck you are getting fucked.

The Proto impact I reviewed is $289 online. The exact same gun with a Mac logo on it is $450 on the truck.

Cornwell pliers are Channellocks. even use the same model numbers.

I'm not sure if Matco makes any of their own shit anymore.

A company called Stride/Imperial makes 90% of the retaining ring pliers made in America, but you'll find wildly varying prices for the exact same pliers.

Thinking about a Kobalt ratchet? Go buy a Titan or possibly Tekton branded ratchet for half the money. All are made by a company in Taiwan called Rotar who also makes Toptul.

Ever heard of Western Forge? They are owned by Ideal (SK's parent company) and make tools for damn near everyone. They make about every Craftsman tool that's still worth having. Their about the only company left still making adjustable wrenches in America. Walk around Sears one day, find the dozen or so items still made in America, and look for a WF stamp on it somewhere. Now you'll know what it means. WF doesn't sell their own brand, but a lot of different companies sell their shit for varying prices.

I can go on all day boys. When it comes to hand tools, it pays to do your homework.

The only time i buy a hand tool that is new is when i need it now, emergency situation now!!! Otherwise lets say i know i have a prject coming up and its time to buy snap rings, i will go online, and i prefer to buy usa made hand tools.....Sk williams    anyways i will usually try an win an ebay auction on one and it will last a lifetime. Here is where i do buy junk tools: beater tools, stuff for the truck, i can beat on it, for emergency purposes. The Kobalt set i have for the truck is not bad.....gets the job done........I do most of my tool buying on line....i always strike the best deal or im waiting till i strike a deal.....Money is very very tight. Also with power tools. Im a big woodworker like to do projects etc. And i love my Milwaukee stuff. Suits me great(Way more than i need) But im a tool enthusiast so i have to have the best made.

[ChrisK]

I'm with you guys on those things too. I have a cheap set of ratchets and hand tools in my truck. They're solid performers and I actually have beat the crap out of them (Husky and some Chinese no name deep socket set) and don't mind if they get trashed as that's what they're for. My woodshop, that's another story, all my favorites and some cheer ones being replaced by better quality,hopefully a new compressor this year, and if I play my cards right, I will have a garage for next year. Over sized and set up with a pellet stove in my new shop! Yee-freakin' ha baby. I just sold my Craftsman bandsaw and Ryobi table saw that I couldn't use. My Kregg tools are all set up in they're own box, my Bosch lboxxes are organizing things for me and all in all the shop is taking on a new face after many years of....ehhh.

[firefighter4187]

I'm with you guys on those things too. I have a cheap set of ratchets and hand tools in my truck. They're solid performers and I actually have beat the crap out of them (Husky and some Chinese no name deep socket set) and don't mind if they get trashed as that's what they're for. My woodshop, that's another story, all my favorites and some cheer ones being replaced by better quality,hopefully a new compressor this year, and if I play my cards right, I will have a garage for next year. Over sized and set up with a pellet stove in my new shop! Yee-freakin' ha baby. I just sold my Craftsman bandsaw and Ryobi table saw that I couldn't use. My Kregg tools are all set up in they're own box, my Bosch lboxxes are organizing things for me and all in all the shop is taking on a new face after many years of....ehhh.

Yeah in my truck box its all kobalt tools, except for my irwin quick grips..........everyone needs those...they are fantastic. But yeah i agree, i beat on them and i dont care, hell most of the time i break a hand tool, i shoot over to Lowes and they are pretty good about getting me a new one, so thats no problem, but yeah in my 6 drawer cabinet at home i have all my nice knipex insualted screwdrivers and pliers...my nice kobalt usa made wrenches...etc

[regopit]

Hahahahaha good luck with that Regopit! Hopefully the storm is gone!

 

Well Chris you must have a crystal ball. After cleaning the drive ways, sidewalks, cars and what ever else of snow today I did not make it to the show but I will be their early Saturday.

[firefighter4187]

Well Chris you must have a crystal ball. After cleaning the drive ways, sidewalks, cars and what ever else of snow today I did not make it to the show but I will be their early Saturday.

I have it made here....clear and 55