Dust Extraction Question

[Hugh Jass]

Seemed like this particular forum could use a little love so I've thrown this here. 

 

I'm in the market for a shop vac that I can use with my portable workshop. I've done some research on this and that about dust collection and how a shop vac is the wrong tool for the job. NO, DON'T DO IT they say. YOU WILL DIE.

 

Looking into it deeper the thoughts on this are that shop vac's are low CFM high suction and dust collectors are high CFM low suction for fine particle suction. 

 

That said at face value, doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me once you start looking at the CFM ratings between a shop vac and a dust extractor with some of these units that are available. 

 

Some figures to look at: 

 

-Festool (king D of all the lands, for some reason) 137CFM for the cost of your first born child and the sacrifice of a two headed goat during a full moon. 

 

-Dewalt 150CFM

 

-Fein 151CFM

 

-Bosch 150CFM

 

And so on...you see the pattern.

 

So I take that bit of info and go hunting for shop vac ratings, hit up the good ol' trusty Ridgid. Google and find a model I like with features I want, the 11gal Smart Cart. And then I see a CFM rating of...wait for it...200CFM!!!

 

200CFM. So this (with a non HEPA yea yea I know but if it can filter drywall dust it's pumping cleaner air than is already there before I start working anyway) has a huge advantage of pure air flow over ALL of the dust collectors said to be specifically designed to do so. 

 

What gives? Is their some other trickery to this or are people just blindly buying a tool costing 2-4x as much with a more limited air volume? 

 

Just not understanding why this wouldn't mate to my DWS780 and do just as well if not better and pulling in debris. 

 

 

 

[Hugh Jass]

Here's a video on the unit I'm talking about in case anyone is interested, looks awesome to me. 

 

https://youtu.be/Z5fnQxNXv9k

[DR99]

Ridgid has a brand new Wet/Dry Vac that I want.

[Hugh Jass]

Yea I like the design of that one too but they haven't released the CFM ratings for some reason...when they hold back real world numbers I tend to pump the brakes. 

[NERemodeling]

That ridgid is nice looking..

I've owned several ridgid wet/dry vacs over the years and now use dust extractors for everything..

Wet/dry vacs definitely have good suction but for how long is the question.. once that filter sees some fine dust forget about it, you loose all suction and need to spend forever banging out the filter. Yes I know they make bags for most wet dry vacs but honestly no one uses them.

Some benifits I see in the extractors

When using a bag you can literally pack the entire volume of the vacuum with debris without much loss in suction

Also emptying is a breeze.. just toss the old bag and stick a new one in. No fuss no mess..

Some units have variable suction which is a must when hooking up to sanders

Tool triggered outlet so the vac starts and stops with the switch on your power tool

Hepa if you ever plan to do lead work

Much quieter

Usually better designed, easier to move through a house..

Just seem better built but I have no proof of that.. I have burnt up some ridgid vacs but have only had my oldest extractor for a few years so it's not a fair comparison (although I use the extractors way more often then I ever used my wet dry vacs..)

I will almost never use a tool without dust collection hooked up now.

[Hugh Jass]

I probably would use the bags. When I worked construction for a very large contractor we used them about half of the time, the issues were that 1) the bags were an expense my boss didn't want to pay for and 2) we used the vacs for water a lot which was a pain in the ass and a waste of time switching it all around. 

 

This tool if effective would be dry use only unless under extreme emergency (I do live on an island and hurricanes and all who knows...) It may even live to vac my SCMS and Table Saw specifically. Armed with that, do you still foresee the same issue of constriction of air flow or do the bags keep that from happening? I wouldn't mind a little more time doing maintenance cleaning it if I can get 33% more performance than a $500-$800 tool made to do the job. The one thing I would wish for out of all of this is the tool actuated switch which is a SUPER nice feature, but it's not $500 nice and there's other ways to work around that issue. 

[madman_us]

the new ridgid looks pretty cool and they are saying it has 25% more power? man i wanna know how much more suction/cfm that vac has.

i have the RIDGID WD1450 for about 3years now (and its still running like a champ). i really like it. 

i went thru several bags and i told myself couple month ago...im not buying anymore bags and last week i pulled the trigger and bought a cyclone. ordered it last week and received it today.

i assembled everything and clean out my shop vac, filter was completely clogged up because the bag ripped.

right now the vac is outside to dry and tmw i gonna test it out.

oh and i bought the "Clear Vue Cyclones Mini CV06 - 6" diameter DIY Dust Cyclone Separator" for $90

 

i use my shop vac just in the garage for my woodworking hobby and its definitely enough but if i would be a contractor, i would pull the trigger and get dust extractor in combination with the cyclone separator.

 

pictures are coming tomorrow

[Hugh Jass]

the new ridgid looks pretty cool and they are saying it has 25% more power? man i wanna know how much more suction/cfm that vac has.

 

It's early but I'm going to call BS on that claim, just like HP ratings...which are peak, all marketing crap. If anything I'd think it would apply to water lift pressure which means low CFM. Unless they've upped the amp rating they're not going to be able to back up a substantial claim like that. 

[madman_us]

yeah you are right.

i really like the vac you linked...the WD7000....if mine ever gonna die, im going to get that one.

but tmw i will see how my WD1450 performs with the Dust Cyclone Separator.

[Hugh Jass]

Ah, big oversight on my part. Turns out due to it's design a bag might not fit that unit. Might have to make something work since I like that unit so much, even though it's rather big and heavy I'm just digging the storage solutions and bin removal is ingenious. 

 

Let me know about that cyclone, I'm skeptical about having extra equipment that I have to set up and break down. 

[comp56]

as far a cyclone not being as portable, I used mine while drywall sanding my ceiling and for the entire sanding job it ran the shop vac flawless with no dust ....was a god send.......I have filled the bucket about 6 times now and shop vac filter still looks like it never has been used.....

 

also shop vac versus dust extractor.....shop vac will lose suction the longer the hose

[chadlanthier]

I think the benefits of the extractor cleaning it's filters constantly and the outlet that comes on with the tools R things your missing with basic wet dry vac. Ifu look at only cfm and don't look at technology then yes the wet dry looks better, but that's where benefits end. I hated spending $500 for a dust extractor, but I'm glad I did. Oh I have the dewalt extractor, and love it.

[Hugh Jass]

as far a cyclone not being as portable, I used mine while drywall sanding my ceiling and for the entire sanding job it ran the shop vac flawless with no dust ....was a god send.......I have filled the bucket about 6 times now and shop vac filter still looks like it never has been used.....

 

also shop vac versus dust extractor.....shop vac will lose suction the longer the hose

 

Huh, I was under the impression that a cyclone would be for big particles, I didn't know it would sort out drywall dust too. 

[madman_us]

Huh, I was under the impression that a cyclone would be for big particles, I didn't know it would sort out drywall dust too. 

no no - its not just for big particles, it caches 99% of the debris you suck in....its just amazing how it works.

its good that i have the mini cyclone now....so i can upscale this one and build a bigger version for my harbor freight dust collector....

[Hugh Jass]

Yea I just watched a few reviews, I might have to do that...I like the idea of having it when I get the vacuum so that my cleanup is down to nothing. 

[madman_us]

so which vac do you get now?

[Hugh Jass]

so which vac do you get now?

 

Honestly I was talked out of doing the Ridgid from what everyone was saying because I hadn't accounted for the loss of CFM from filter restriction, but now that I look at the Dust Deputy I'm convinced it totally circumvents that problem. With a continuous 200CFM it combined with the Dust Deputy will outperform any 120v portable dust extractor for 1/3 of the cost and 33% higher dust gathering ability than anything else on the market. I'll also combine this with the iVac auto switch system so that I also have tool actuated switching like the big boys do all for about $300 - $350.

 

It might be a while before I test this however, I'm contemplating moving within a few months as well as taking an extended vacation so I need to build the funds for the next few months till I get past this chaos period. I have about 2K worth of tools left that I need to complete my mobile operation. 

[Gatorb888]

The DWV010 is around the $350 price range. 

• HEPA/RRP compliant
• Dual Automatic Filter Cleaning
• Tool Actuation
• 15' Hose Length
• Anti Static Hose

[Hugh Jass]

 

The DWV010 is around the $350 price range. 

• HEPA/RRP compliant
• Dual Automatic Filter Cleaning
• Tool Actuation
• 15' Hose Length
• Anti Static Hose

 

 

Hey, I actually like that unit. Not crazy about having the traditional issue with having no storage for the bits and pieces but I'll have to take that into consideration. Comparison for points that matter most to me:

 

-The Dewalt Advantages

Can be had for $299 from CPO. 

Built in tool actuation

Hepa Filtration with auto clean

Lightweight for 27lb, just over half of the Ridgid.

Compact

Longer Hose

 

-Dewalt Disadvantage

Crappy storage

Filters very expensive

Only 8 gal

No ability to wet vac

Container isn't as easy to empty

Wheels don't appear to lock

 

-Ridgid Advantages

$200 for the Vac

50CFM higher than dust extractors

Fantastic storage for accessories

Locking wheels

 

-Ridgid Disadvantages

Bulky

Heavy

Needs Dust Deputy 

Needs iVac tool actuated switch

 

Final cost with everything needed for the Ridgid: $304

 

Tough one. 

[DR99]

I would get the Dust extractor and possibly later on get a beater Black Friday or clearance Ridgid wet/dry vac. The only thing is having the space to carry around two vacuums.

[madman_us]

just wait for fathers day, they will prolly have shop vacs on sale again

[Hugh Jass]

just wait for fathers day, they will prolly have shop vacs on sale again

 

I'm pretty confident I won't be buying then, I leave for a 10 day trip to Alaska on June 23rd. Sucks because I could really splurge if I weren't obligated to all the vacation I'm going to have. 

[overanalyze]

I really like the design of the cart and tool storage of the first one. That and the hose looks like it is 1-1/2" so it is perfect for hooking up to a miter saw....but why no tool activation? They almost had a homerun.

I like the Dewalts specs, but no flat top or T-stack/ToughSystem integration.

For now I will stick with my midi. We have an older Shop Vac for basic cleaning but it will need upgraded soon.

[Hugh Jass]

I really like the design of the cart and tool storage of the first one. That and the hose looks like it is 1-1/2" so it is perfect for hooking up to a miter saw....but why no tool activation? They almost had a homerun.

I like the Dewalts specs, but no flat top or T-stack/ToughSystem integration.

For now I will stick with my midi. We have an older Shop Vac for basic cleaning but it will need upgraded soon.

 

Me too. I just looked though and It's not in stock at HD anymore for that price, I fear it might be gone for good since it was rather hard to find for some reason. Maybe sales weren't what they wanted.

[Hugh Jass]

The Smart Cart is back in stock at HD, crisis adverted.