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Does anyone else miss brushed tools?


optimistspencer

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Yeah, I know about the difference in power, but it seems like the brushless tools don't exactly last as long. I don't know about you guys, but I prefer when the life of a tool was up to the user not the confuser inside. Believe me, I love my brushless tools, I'm just still a little skeptical of spending hundreds extra on brushless models of everything... What do you think?

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to me while I am buying Milwaukee Brushless the warranty has not changed so in saying that chances are after 5 years I probably will want new models of the tool. the days of this thing is 20 years old and still works like new are long gone.....they come up with bigger better models everyday it seems....

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Yeah, I know about the difference in power, but it seems like the brushless tools don't exactly last as long. I don't know about you guys, but I prefer when the life of a tool was up to the user not the confuser inside. Believe me, I love my brushless tools, I'm just still a little skeptical of spending hundreds extra on brushless models of everything... What do you think?

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Just because a motor is brushless doesn't mean it's more powerful, that's not the advantage of brushless tools. It's run time that you are paying a premium for. 

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i miss the new tool smell on a brushed tool.

Gatorb888, i understand you're take on this. Could you offer an opinion then, as to why the most powerful tools in the market are mostly brushless?

 

Examples, Dewalt's HT wrench. Makita's hammer drillgrinder, impact driver and circ saw, Milwaukee's grinder, circ, recip, HT wrench, rotary SDS hammer.

 

The only exception that comes to mind is Metabo's grinder.

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i miss the new tool smell on a brushed tool.

Gatorb888, i understand you're take on this. Could you offer an opinion then, as to why the most powerful tools in the market are mostly brushless?

Examples, Dewalt's HT wrench. Makita's hammer drill, grinder, impact driver and circ saw, Milwaukee's grinder, circ, recip, HT wrench, rotary SDS hammer.

The only exception that comes to mind is Metabo's grinder.

Gator is right, I misworded it. They are more powerful because companies want to sell the more expensive brushless models, so they make the new models more powerful than a brushed so they sell more.

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Brusheless uses permanant magnets in the rotor so more current can go to the stator windings which gives you more power.  The closest brushed option was a permanant magnet stator to allow more current to the brushed rotor which is much less efficient.

 

If you want more detail you need magnetic field densities and other black magic

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Well you could always go with Dewalt, seems 80%of their product line is brushed. It's there going to be a BL circular saw, or a BL reciprocating saw? Doesn't seem to be in the forecast. The only thing BL i own from Dewilt is the drills and personally i think they kick ass

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you also have to realize this technology is not new, it's been around since the 60's, I remember brushless motors in conveyors in the mills I did shut downs in. the technology is better in many ways it is just the fact it cost more to make and put in place. that is pretty much why you don't see it in every power tool. eventually it will become mainstream but not yet. 

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Just because a motor is brushless doesn't mean it's more powerful, that's not the advantage of brushless tools. It's run time that you are paying a premium for. 

Better efficiency means less heat and less current.

Which in turn means it takes a lesser load on the battery and have less heat output. Which is great, sure, but what else can you do with that? You can trade it for a more powerfull motor. 

 

Current and heat is one of the the main reason we don't have more powerfull battery-drills. So, if the efficiency goes up, you can trade it for more power. Or vice versa. 

 

Sure, brushless tools incorporate more things/components that can go wrong, and more thing that can be tempting for producers to cheap out on. And if they do, the drills can have a shorter life. But done right, using high quality electronics (which lasts for ages), you can get a lot more work done. 

The weakest link is probably the gearbox and battery, having a ton of wear to deal with. And may be abused good. 

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What a beast. :D

Weighing in at 6 Ibs, thats a real heavy duty. :P Looks good though, I give you that.'t

WIth brushless though, Milwaukee can give you 1200 Inch ibs at 5 ibs weight. :) Can't beat that.

M18 Fuel drill 2704-22

The thing is, Milwaukee is a marketing company. I love my Milwaukee stuff, but I think they are a little too liberal with the specs.

My new Hilti Impact says that is it only 1460 in-lbf, whereas the Milwaukee claims 1600 in-lbf. The thing is, the Hilti feels slightly more powerful. I was testing by driving 3 1/4 #8 wood screws into a 4/4.

Milwaukee claims 3600 ipm, but that is under no load. Hilti is 3450 ipm, but doesn't bog down like the Milwaukee does.

The Hilti stuff is rated at 18 volt minimum, 23 volt max, which is a little odd!

The biggest thing I noticed was how much quieter the Hilti is. The Milwaukee screams!

This isn't Milwaukee bashing, I own a complete set of fuel tools. It just seems marketing is more important than real world usable stats lately.

Just making something brushless doesn't make it better. Look at some of the first Makita brushless stuff they rolled out too early to try to compete. It was lack luster and underwhelming.

Jury is sill out tool lifespan too. That's another conversation though!

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Just making something brushless doesn't make it better. Look at some of the first Makita brushless stuff they rolled out too early to try to compete. It was lack luster and underwhelming. 

Well, it kinda does. It will make it better. But it won't necessary make it any good, I can give you that. But then again, if you put in a weak/bad brushless motor/controller, it will probably be a bad drill, but that statement goes for brushed to. 

 

Obviously, a drill is more that just specs. It have to feel good to use, and have power. Hilti could be better at both, that is not my main point. Though, all of the more scientific tests out there, have measured the specs on the larger brands to gives out at least what they proclaim on the spec sheet. I have not seen anything from hilti, so I can't say if they operate with way to low numbers on their spec-sheet. But If I had to choose, a hilti brushed piece would probably be what I choose. :D It looks kinda awesome. 

 

And mind you tough, I like fixing my stuff, and a brushed unit is very easy to fix. Brushless on the other hand... 

So even though I like the easier route, the brushes have been caousing problem now and then, I have been able to fix it. (mostly bad brushed motors) 

 

Anyways, what I like is not the point either. Becouse the facts is: Brushless is more efficient, there is just no way to deny that. And with better efficiency, you can easily trade that with a number of thing (as I mentioned earlier in this thread), including more power. But then again, how good the drill becomes, that usually come down to money and design. Hilti seems to be focusing on brushed units (mostly), while other companies seems to favor brushless on newer designs. The safe route is of course brushed, since its what have been used in power tools for ages. 

 

But it might also fall behind at some point. When other companies have gotten cost down, and quality up on brushless, it would not be fun to have an inherently lesser motor. 

 

 

 

The Hilti stuff is rated at 18 volt minimum, 23 volt max, which is a little odd!

They could call it 100V or 16V for all I care. It's the same number of cells and type of battery. :P

 

Edit: The one thing I really hate about brushed motors, is the sparks, and the sound the motors usually makes. Becouse it reminds me of the brushes that is slowly getting weared. 

 

Edit: So to answer the first question in this thread.Yes I miss brushed tools (becouse of their simplicity and easy to fix), but brushless is better. 

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Its actually not thesame number of cells.

Hilti batteries have 6 cells in series ( for 21.6 volts ) whereas all other manufacturers have 5 cells ( for 18 volts ).

The extra cell/voltage is not really used for more power because hilti's battery tools do not feature more power then comparable tools from other Brands.

It is however used for more endurance. Hiltis batteries are ' low' on amps compared to the other Brands. But that hardly matters.

18v * 4 amp is 72 watt/hout of juice in the batteries.

21,6 x 3.3 amp ( hilti batteries ) is 71.6 watt hours.

Same capacity. Just an other setup of cells inside.

Here in belgium hilti advertises their tools as 22 volt while in the USA for example hilti calls them '18' for they have thesame size/Wright ( and power ) as other 18 volt tools on the market.

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Its actually not thesame number of cells.

Hilti batteries have 6 cells in series ( for 21.6 volts ) whereas all other manufacturers have 5 cells ( for 18 volts ).

The extra cell/voltage is not really used for more power because hilti's battery tools do not feature more power then comparable tools from other Brands.

It is however used for more endurance. Hiltis batteries are ' low' on amps compared to the other Brands. But that hardly matters.

Here in belgium hilti advertises their tools as 22 volt while in the USA for example hilti calls them '18' for they have thesame size/Wright ( and power ) as other 18 volt tools on the market.

In that case, that is pretty awesome. :) DOesn't make the motor better, but possibly could give it the best support at hard load (won't experience the same voltage drop). 

 

The US marked sure is weird in that context. Some 18V tools is marked as 20V, and 21,6V eqipment is marked as 18V. 

 

 

And i really would like to see an in depth review of Makita xph07, fuel gen 2 and the hilti next tools eachother

 

Sure would like too se a review like that. Though I have never used an hilti tool, they really do looks well built. 

 

In that context, I must give a small negative note on the XPH07, and their long handle. But in contrary to a lot of other people, I'm not complaining on the length of the handle, but its support on the drill. The drill itself has two "support-clips" the handle can clamp around. But only one is used at the same time (depends on which side you use it on). And with 1090 inch ibs, that support is struggling to hold on with the enourmous kickback you get. 

 

Also seems like the support/clip have been a bit weared down, making the handle a atd wobly, and if you don't tighten it every now and then, you risk it to slip. 

 

Not a huge thing all in all, but I'm a big fan of the big handle and the power of the drill, just not the support connecting thoose to monsters. It's enough force to push me aside, and needs to me heavily anchored.

 

But that motor, nothing wrong in this world with that. :D

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