Bremon Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 There are measurements smaller than mm in metric. I don't see how fractions are any more or less accurate than that. This is coming from someone who uses imperial at work exclusively. My tape measures don't have 32nds on them but they do have mm. Which is more accurate on an average tape measure; 25 increments or 16? Imperial being used still is more or more or less because USA is a massive country of people and square miles so changing everything over is a pain the the backside. To say nothing of the quality of education in America, or the general attitude of American exceptionalism towards doing something first or not doing it at all That said, Fahrenheit is infinitely preferable to Celsius. C is simple though. -40 is too damn cold. 0 is acceptable cold. 40 is too damn hot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwasifar Posted January 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Albert, I generally agree with you, but I have to differ about the origin of the foot measurement. Almost nobody's foot is actually a foot long unless they play in the NBA. I wear a size 12 shoe, and my SHOES are a foot long, which is handy for pacing off rough distances, but my feet are obviously not as long as my shoes. Neither system is more accurate. Any quantity can be expressed with any desired degree of precision in either system. The debate is really about which is easier and more convenient, and each has its benefits and drawbacks in that regard. I think the human measurement argument weighs strongly in favor of the Imperial system, while the math argument leans in favor of metric. So I'm tired of hearing from metric advocates about how stupid and inefficient Imperial measurements are, but I acknowledge it would also be wrong to take the opposite position. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert.amantea Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Albert, I generally agree with you, but I have to differ about the origin of the foot measurement. Almost nobody's foot is actually a foot long unless they play in the NBA. I wear a size 12 shoe, and my SHOES are a foot long, which is handy for pacing off rough distances, but my feet are obviously not as long as my shoes. Neither system is more accurate. Any quantity can be expressed with any desired degree of precision in either system. The debate is really about which is easier and more convenient, and each has its benefits and drawbacks in that regard. I think the human measurement argument weighs strongly in favor of the Imperial system, while the math argument leans in favor of metric. So I'm tired of hearing from metric advocates about how stupid and inefficient Imperial measurements are, but I acknowledge it would also be wrong to take the opposite position.Well, thank you! I do agree that the foot measurement is likely way off, but that result was from Wikipedia and Google. While not perfect, they are generally correct, which is why I included the Google reference in my post. I also agree that it truly doesn't matter which system is used as long as the accuracy of the measurement is within the needed tolerance of the design. As stated, I use both on a daily basis and even mix the two within the same project quite often. My issue with the previous post was that imperial was an arbitrary system, which is quite simply not true. It goes back to a time before metric, before even rulers and tape measures were common place. The inch measure was simply the length of the index finger from the tip to the first knuckle. If you Christian, you may remember the term "cubit" from the story of Noah's Ark. This measurement was likely the distance from the elbow to the tip of the pinky finger. My belief is that the foot measurement was probably the distance from the elbow to the wrist, but I have no proof or reliable science to back that up. It just makes since to me. The "yard" measurement is said to be from tip of the nose to the outstretched middle finger, but I believe it is the length of an average human walking stride. The historical aspect of this debate is very interesting to me, but it really doesn't matter which one is used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwasifar Posted January 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 hour ago, albert.amantea said: Well, thank you! I do agree that the foot measurement is likely way off, but that result was from Wikipedia and Google. While not perfect, they are generally correct, which is why I included the Google reference in my post. I also agree that it truly doesn't matter which system is used as long as the accuracy of the measurement is within the needed tolerance of the design. As stated, I use both on a daily basis and even mix the two within the same project quite often. My issue with the previous post was that imperial was an arbitrary system, which is quite simply not true. It goes back to a time before metric, before even rulers and tape measures were common place. The inch measure was simply the length of the index finger from the tip to the first knuckle. If you Christian, you may remember the term "cubit" from the story of Noah's Ark. This measurement was likely the distance from the elbow to the tip of the pinky finger. My belief is that the foot measurement was probably the distance from the elbow to the wrist, but I have no proof or reliable science to back that up. It just makes since to me. The "yard" measurement is said to be from tip of the nose to the outstretched middle finger, but I believe it is the length of an average human walking stride. The historical aspect of this debate is very interesting to me, but it really doesn't matter which one is used. We are in agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordraw Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 "When I need true precision, I will go decimal with my measurements, but a 1/64" or 1/32" is plenty accurate for most woodworking and fine furniture projects." Like this That pretty much says in all. Decimal is the way to go. The US is pretty much the only place left that uses fractions and not the metric system. So that would explain why it is being pushed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildroamer Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 20 hours ago, Bremon said: ...-40 is too damn cold... Not to mention the fact that if it's -40° it doesn't matter if it's F or C!? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 So true wild! @albert.amantea I think we can agree that obviously the standards for imperial have a reason for being. My point is those reasons are outdated. They are fairly arbitrary in today's world. My work boot is a foot. That doesn't make it a good scale for measurement. My feet are different sizes than many other people's. The length of my finger from tip to first knuckle may be an inch; but if it is, that means many other people's built-in tape measures were marked wrong at the factory. As mentioned, I use both systems extensively. If you could expand on "Metric is simple to you because it doesn't require thought. That doesn't make it more accurate. In fact, it can make it less so." I'd be all ears. It's not simpler "to me". It isn't subjectively simpler; it's objectively simpler. "Keep it simple, stupid" is a fairly common sentiment for a reason. How does simplicity take away from accuracy, bearing in mind metric has decimals? Especially when you've admitted you switch to decimal if you want perfection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stercorarius Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 I'm a duodecimalist at heart and so inches and feet make more sense to me. It is way easier to divide fractions than numbers for me anyway. That and you don't even really speak in terms of feet most of the time when framing or most work. It's almost always in terms of inches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert.amantea Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 So true wild! @albert.amantea I think we can agree that obviously the standards for imperial have a reason for being. My point is those reasons are outdated. They are fairly arbitrary in today's world. My work boot is a foot. That doesn't make it a good scale for measurement. My feet are different sizes than many other people's. The length of my finger from tip to first knuckle may be an inch; but if it is, that means many other people's built-in tape measures were marked wrong at the factory. As mentioned, I use both systems extensively. If you could expand on "Metric is simple to you because it doesn't require thought. That doesn't make it more accurate. In fact, it can make it less so." I'd be all ears. It's not simpler "to me". It isn't subjectively simpler; it's objectively simpler. "Keep it simple, stupid" is a fairly common sentiment for a reason. How does simplicity take away from accuracy, bearing in mind metric has decimals? Especially when you've admitted you switch to decimal if you want perfection. Imperial has decimals also. And I use them when I want precision and accuracy. In order to gain simplicity, something has to give. In almost every case, the tradeoff is accuracy. There is a huge difference between accuracy and precision. They are NOT the same thing, even though the terms are sometimes used interchangeably. (a pet peeve of mine)Let me illustrate this for you... Let's say I am shooting a gun, firing 3 rounds 200 yards/meters down range at a bullseye target. If I completely missed the target, but all 3 rounds hit with 1 inch/cm of each other, my precision is spot on, but my accuracy is worthless. If all 3 rounds hit the target, but miss the bullseye and spread out by 6 inches /cm, my accuracy is much better, but my precision is worthless. All 3 hitting the bullseye on the target within a 1 inch/cm spread would be both accurate and precise. In other words, accuracy is accomplishing the goal intended...Precision is doing something that is repeatable and reproducible. Now, back to the discussion... Your statement of imperial standards being outdated I think is a generalization. As long as you and I are human and physical beings, I don't think it's outdated. All measurements either taken or given are relative and dynamic anyway. The standard of measurement is only a reference. The part either fits or it doesn't, and I actually try to measure with rulers or tapes as little as possible. I find it quicker, more precise, and more accurate, to use the physical piece to cut to fit instead of trying to hit a mark on a tape. Anyone who does woodworking or a construction related industry for a living probably does as well. Science based industry, machinists, engineering, etc., however, rely on measurements for their precision. They mostly will work in decimal notation, whether imperial or metric based, due to the precision required for their products to function and live long, happy lives. In our industry, that level of precision and accuracy just isn't required. Wood is a constantly changing material. It moves in 3 dimensions, and is quite forgiving of inaccuracies in measurements (to a point). If a table is 6 feet long or 2 meters long doesn't make a difference to those who enjoy sitting at and eating on it. In fact, you could have a 6ft long table, with a 1 meter leaf in the center, and it would still work. (of course, it would matter if one side of the leaf had dowels at 3 cm and the table had them at 3 inches, but I digress.) You also stated that the standard doesn't make it a good scale for measurement, but I submit that it does. Everyone has a finger, knuckle, elbow, etc, and it only takes a few seconds to determine the comparison for the standards chosen. Either could be used. Whether or not it is subjective or objective, it is all most certainly relative. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theultimatehic Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 Think we have gone well beyond how to read a tape measure. Hahaha 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert.amantea Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 Think we have gone well beyond how to read a tape measure. HahahaYeah we kinda left that behind a while ago! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 @albert.amantea you make some good points and I can appreciate your point of view. Inch/foot etc. point of reference doesn't make it accurate, knowing that my forearm is say 11" is handy in that I know I only have to add an inch to it for a foot but the same "trick" could be applied to metric. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 5 minutes ago, albert.amantea said: Yeah we kinda left that behind a while ago! Lol we have to go off the beaten path to keep discussion interesting. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert.amantea Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 I'm a duodecimalist at heart and so inches and feet make more sense to me. It is way easier to divide fractions than numbers for me anyway. That and you don't even really speak in terms of feet most of the time when framing or most work. It's almost always in terms of inches.Yep. Of course.. Framers only think in 1/8ths if they're good, 1/4's if they're not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordraw Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 On 1/5/2017 at 8:33 PM, albert.amantea said: Yep. Of course.. Framers only think in 1/8ths if they're good, 1/4's if they're not! you mean .125 right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert.amantea Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 you mean .125 right?Yep, or 2mm for those who think metric!@bremon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremon Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 Lol! Mm or 1/8 depends if I'm on the clock or not 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jronman Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 metric is a base 10 system which means when converting to a different measurement all you gotta do is move the decimal to the left or right the correct amount of spaces. Seems fairly easy to me. ie: 1mm =.1cm. Milwaukee makes an imperial/metric tape for those who use both. I think my dad probably taught me how to read a tape when I was young. Anyone know how to use an architects scale? we use them to read house plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comp56 Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 proper way to read a tape measure is in the vertical position with your left or right arm bent at approx. 30° head tilted towards tape measure readings. If this is not available I get someone else to get measurements............ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albert.amantea Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 proper way to read a tape measure is in the vertical position with your left or right arm bent at approx. 30° head tilted towards tape measure readings. If this is not available I get someone else to get measurements............Lol! You forgot to mention that the tongue must protrude from the mouth exactly 1/16" on the opposite side from the dominant hand... Follow me on Instagram:@amanteafinewoodworks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboS1ice Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 proper way to read a tape measure is in the vertical position with your left or right arm bent at approx. 30° head tilted towards tape measure readings. If this is not available I get someone else to get measurements............That tape better have the highest vertical reach and have been purchased with a 50% off coupon from apex tool groupJimbosent from tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnarlyCarl Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 This is too deep to read right before bed.... Interesting tho! For some reason it sticks in my head that I was told in school that a certain King declared the length of his foot to be called "foot" and the distance from the tip of his thumb to the first knuckle to be called "inch" .... But I couldn't tell you if that was just a story from my eccentric history teacher Mr. Scott Heiney or from the crazy old Mrs. Dana Souar just as a joke.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comp56 Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 42 minutes ago, JimboS1ice said: That tape better have the highest vertical reach and have been purchased with a 50% off coupon from apex tool group Jimbo sent from tapatalk hmm if you post your personal email I could forward it to whoever is in charge of the 50% off coupons..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Jass Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 44 minutes ago, KnarlyCarl said: This is too deep to read right before bed.... Interesting tho! For some reason it sticks in my head that I was told in school that a certain King declared the length of his foot to be called "foot" and the distance from the tip of his thumb to the first knuckle to be called "inch" .... But I couldn't tell you if that was just a story from my eccentric history teacher Mr. Scott Heiney or from the crazy old Mrs. Dana Souar just as a joke.... True, but interestingly enough they happen to be two different Kings, actually different Kings for all of them. The foot was King Charlemagne and the inch was King Edgar. Yard was King Henry I's nose to his fingertip. Some of the measurements are said to have been modified to today's numbers to better standardize them with other measurements. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comp56 Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 well if we are covering history, how long is a furlong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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